ROSS GREENWOOD: Today all of the bosses of the big energy companies were trotted to Canberra to basically go before Australia's Minister for Energy, Angus Taylor, who has told them that the prices for electricity - your electricity, whether you're in business on whether you're in a home - has to come down this year. Now, the way in which that's going to be done is going to be interesting - is it simply a case that they cut their prices? But there's other bits and pieces around energy as well today. One of those things is - just having a look - this afternoon, late this afternoon, the federal Treasurer Josh Frydenberg has rejected the takeover of the giant pipeline company APA group, it was under takeover by CK Asset Holdings - Hong Kong/Chinese based consortium; it's been rejected on national interest grounds. I'll get you more details about that. Angus Taylor, the Minister for Energy, is on the line right now. Many thanks for your time, Angus.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks for having me, Ross.

ROSS GREENWOOD: Let's first up go to the decision by the Treasurer to reject the takeover of the gas pipeline group APA Group. I mean, it's clear to most casual observers that if there is any question about the sovereign ownership of your pipeline assets, there's also going to be potential question marks over your availability and reliability of gas supplies into electricity generation and also into homes.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, this has been an ongoing issue, as you know, Ross. We've put in place a mechanism in the last year - in fact, Josh Frydenberg did it when he was energy minister, to make sure there's enough gas available for domestic use. But the truth is, as you rightly point out, pipelines are very, very sensitive pieces of infrastructure. APA, which is the company that was proposed to be bought by the CK Group, is a very big pipeline company in Australia, owns many of the pipelines that move gas around the east coast of Australia, and the Treasurer has made his decision on national interest grounds. And, you know, these are deliberations that the Treasurer - I know from past experience - works through very, very carefully, but as critical infrastructure, we've got to make sure it's in the right hands and that it is there to serve the interests of Australian consumers and Australian businesses. And of course in gas, that is particularly critical at this time because of some of the behaviour we've seen in the past.

ROSS GREENWOOD: Okay - 15,000 kilometres of pipelines; it represents 56 per cent of Australia's gas pipeline transmission system, so it is vital infrastructure of Australia. Just a couple of things is China's reaction. I noticed that our Trade Minister Simon Birmingham was the first minister in the last two years to be in China this week - Marise Payne also, the Foreign Minister, will be going into China in the next couple of weeks. Do you believe a decision such as this, on national interest grounds, will get any adverse reaction from the Chinese Government?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Oh look, I'm not in a position to comment on that. But look, I think any country in the world that observes foreign investment review board decisions - there are equivalent decisions made in other countries; every country has a similar agency - they all understand that a government has to act in its national interest and that it retains the power to reject investment decisions where it's absolutely necessary. I mean, we reject very few - if you look over our recent history, there's been very few investment decisions we have rejected, but there are some, and critical infrastructure like pipelines is an area where you do have to be particularly careful and I have no doubt that Josh made this decision based on good advice and very, very careful consideration.

ROSS GREENWOOD: You were seeking today with the meeting with the bosses of the big energy companies a cut in the retail price of electricity - did you get it?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yeah, well look: we've asked them - let me be very specific about what we've asked them - we've asked them to reduce standing offers, which are the prices people pay if they haven't negotiated a better price, a market price. We've asked them to reduce those by 1 July next year, with a down payment on 1 January. This is particularly important for small businesses, Ross - about 20 per cent of small businesses are on these standing offers because they simply don't get time to negotiate something better, and they get stung - they've been stung hard. In fact, those standing offers, those un-negotiated prices have got higher and higher over time relative to negotiated prices, and we've said that's not fair. It's simply not fair that a small business person - or a householder who is too busy picking up the kids or driving home from work in the afternoon - should get stung because they've trusted their energy company. Well, that's not on. I made it clear what our expectations were to the energy companies. And the other thing we've asked them to do is to reduce the confusion in their offers. So, right now, I could get a 20 per cent discount from one company and a 20 per cent discount from another company and they're completely different prices - I have to sit there with a spread sheet to work out who's giving me a better deal. We've asked them to strip that all out and they've come forward and say: yep, we are prepared to do that earlier than you'd asked, and they're aiming to have that in place as soon as possible.

ROSS GREENWOOD: So, again, can I be-

ANGUS TAYLOR: So, these are good initiatives for Australian electricity consumers, and not before time, frankly.

ROSS GREENWOOD: I trust you will excuse me for being maybe a little sceptical about the energy companies.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Sure.

ROSS GREENWOOD: Because we've heard all of this before. I've looked at the bills - it's hard to try and fathom what goes on most of the time. But if we're talking about a base price - and I understand the EnergyAustralia chief executive Catherine Tanner was talking about this - if it is a base price, they're all going to be on the same base price. As a result, if there are discounts off that base price, I'll be able to understand what the discount is. Is that the way in which it's being proposed?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Exactly. So, you can bring someone's energy price down to a single figure, in the simplest form - you just say: you're getting a 20 per cent discount, Ross, from this company; you're getting a 25 per cent discount from Company B, and so you know 25 per cent's better. Right now, you know, you could get those two offers and you wouldn't know which is the better price.

ROSS GREENWOOD: Okay. Is that on the electricity part of my bill? Is it on the network part of my bill? Is it on the whole bill? How does that work?

ANGUS TAYLOR: It's the total electricity bill.

ROSS GREENWOOD: Total electricity bill.

ANGUS TAYLOR: It must be the total electricity bill. Now, the truth is, if you're going to two different companies and getting two different offers from them, the network charge should be the same. But look, it is the total bill that counts here. And that is really crucial, that people can just simply know that when they ask, they ring around and ask for prices, they're getting apples with apples comparisons; they're not comparing an apple with an orange because that's just too confusing.

ROSS GREENWOOD: Okay. And what did the energy companies say to you in regards to the reliability, the robustness of the national electricity market this summer? I'm noticing here - $140 per megawatt hour in Queensland right now, the wholesale price; $129 in New South Wales. These are historically very high figures. Of course, it is a little warm in many parts of those states right now. In regards to making certain there is enough electricity, especially on the peak days, what did they tell you?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, we've been clear with them. I mean, we've put them on notice and said: we need to make sure we have enough power - reliable, affordable power - available for the worst possible day; which is typically the hottest day - in the southern states, it can be a very cold day. You've got to have the power available. Now, we've said that by 1 July next year, we'll have a mechanism in place that will have penalties if they don't comply with that; if the reliability or the supply is not available. And I think they understand. The world's changed here, Ross. They understand now they are on notice from the Government. They've got to start acting in their customers' interest. And frankly, the person who has been forgotten most in this market in recent years is the customer. We've had all these wonderful discussions about which fuel we should be using and all sorts of other things. But the one person everyone has ignored in the debate is giving the customer a fair deal. And whether it's reliability - which we're just talking about - or prices - we were talking about a moment ago - it's now time for the companies to step up and give that fairer deal.

ROSS GREENWOOD: But surely, closing down the Liddell power station, which is AGL's plant - it's rejected an offer of $250 million for that power station, even though it only bought it for a dollar from the State Government of New South Wales - surely, that is not in the customers' interest because it creates another shortage in electricity when it comes out of the market to be replaced by wind or solar, which is not the ever reliable electricity that Australia needs for our industry, and indeed, for those peak periods.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Right. So, we've got to have the 24/7 reliable supply in the market when it's needed. If they're going to close...

ROSS GREENWOOD: Which is coal-fired power station or it's hydro, or it's battery storage. But, of course, batteries right now are horrendously expensive to build and to run.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Exactly right. So, it's got to be 24/7; it's got to be reliable. Now, there's a range of fuel [inaudible]...

ROSS GREENWOOD: So, we're talking coal, aren't we, really?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, look, coal is one, but it's not the only one. And there are range of fuel sources that can give you that 24/7 power, that reliable power. But, you know, that'll be for the company to decide. We're not going to dictate fuel sources to them. I tell you what we will dictate, though, is that that affordable, reliable power has got to be there for households, for industries, for aluminium smelters, for cement factories to keep this country ticking over. And to withdraw capacity, as we saw with Hazelwood; we saw this not long ago, you'll remember well - Hazelwood in Victoria was withdrawn from the market and the prices skyrocketed. And worst, the bidding behaviour of the companies suggested that they knew this was happening - well, they did know it was happening. And they were going to make the most out of it. Now, that's totally unacceptable. And we've made clear to the companies: you've got to have that 24/7 reliable power, range of fuel sources - coal's one of them. The balance has got to be there to make sure that they can deliver when it's needed and deliver at an affordable price. Frankly, we have said - not only are we asking the companies to keep that amount of supply in the market, we have made clear: we will underwrite capacity ourselves to make sure there's enough in the market. And if we create new competitors in the process, more competition, that's a damn good thing.

ROSS GREENWOOD: Is the threat of a royal commission still on the table?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, there's a lot of big sticks here. We've said we'll build our own, we'll underwrite our own generation if we have to. And there's some markets where it's more likely we're going to have do that. We've put them on notice that if we have to force divestment of a generator from a company because they want to shut it down ahead of having available alternative supply, we'll force divestment; we'll force it away from the company.

ROSS GREENWOOD: Energy Minister Angus Taylor, appreciate your time here on the program this evening.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thank you, Ross.