LAURA JAYES: Angus Taylor, thanks for your time. Of the 900,000 customers that have benefited from this legislation, how many have seen that $430 reduction?

ANGUS TAYLOR: A significant number have seen a reduction as a result. I mean, these are the people who are on standing offers that you're talking about, Laura.

LAURA JAYES: Yes.

ANGUS TAYLOR: That's the people who, and businesses, who aren't in a position for one reason or another to negotiate a better price. We've seen savings of up to $190 for those customers, which is great news. Often they're vulnerable customers, or customers who are time constrained. In fact, almost a quarter of small businesses are on standing offers. So that's very, very good news. There's other good news in this report. We're also seeing a significant reduction in the sneaky late payment fees that have been prevalent in the industry in recent years. This is when you get hit for a very significant premium in your bill if you pay even an hour late. Thirdly, we're seeing very significant competition from the second-tier retailers, which is great news. Now the important message here for consumers - the big energy companies are not being as aggressive as the smaller players on their best market offers, and there's an opportunity here to get a better deal. Shop around, go to those smaller retailers, they're being more aggressive. One of the reforms is to make it much easier for you to compare prices between the different energy companies. The reference price allows that, makes that very simple. Apples for apples comparisons are possible in a way that wasn't possible in the past, Laura.

LAURA JAYES: Okay. Minister, what's the average amount that people are saving across all of the states?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, everywhere is different so I'm not going to give an average figure. What we are seeing though, for instance, is up to $190 on standing offers. You gave the numbers in New South Wales, so the situation is different. The point here is much of it for an individual consumer depends on what they do. So there's savings if you are on a standing offer, but there's even more savings if you pick up the phone and call. As I say, calling a second-tier retailer now is very, very important. You've got to go and chase those savings of $300-400-500 that are available for a typical household. Significantly more for a small business. If you just get on the phone very quickly and call one of those smaller retailers and get an offer from them.

LAURA JAYES: Okay, so you say in New South Wales, for example, the savings have been up to $190. This legislation only came in in July, so it's had, you know, the intervening months to work out. Are these savings in line with the promises you made beforehand or did you oversell it?

ANGUS TAYLOR: No. The standing offer savings are very much in line with what we said beforehand and the reason is simple: it's a price cap. It prevents the energy companies from going above that cap. We've known what that cap was, it was set by the AER some time back, and so it was very predictable that companies would stick to that cap, they have to. There's no if, buts, or maybes on that, Laura. But look, there's more work to do here. We know that it's absolutely crucial that we do everything we can to retain and attract supply in the market, dispatchable supply in particular. That's why we've got our Underwriting New Generation program. That's why we put in place from 1 July the Retailer Reliability Obligation. These are crucial reforms, and it's also why we're bringing forward the legislation, the competition reforms, commonly known as the ‘Big Stick’ legislation, Laura, which is all about holding the big energy companies to account, making sure they do the right thing in the various energy markets across Australia.

LAURA JAYES: I will get to the big stick legislation, but didn't you promise on this legislation, that was brought in July that people might see savings of up to $800?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well there are people who are seeing savings in very high order, because there were standing offers that were way above where they should have been. So there were some retailers who had escalated standing offers, and that was completely inappropriate behaviour, which is why we've established a cap. My simple point is you'll typically see savings if you're on standing offers towards that $200 mark. It depends on your usage, it depends on what the offer you were on before, but there are very, very significant savings for consumers, Laura, and these are the consumers who are not in a position to ring around for one reason or another. Often they're very vulnerable consumers, or time constrained consumers as we see with small businesses.

LAURA JAYES: Look some of the lowest retail rates have risen according to the ACCC to, it would seem, cover the Default Market Offer. Does that actually mean that some of the poorest households have been dudded?

ANGUS TAYLOR: We know that the CPI for electricity is coming down. So overall, we are seeing reductions, but we also know the big energy companies have been less aggressive with their best market offers than the smaller players. This is a very, very good reason to give a call to one of the smaller players, to ring around and ask for a better offer from one of the smaller players in the market. They are being more aggressive, and-

LAURA JAYES: [Talks over] So you're saying the government can't do everything, people have to do something for themselves and ring around?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, I mean this is a market, we are regulating price caps, but there's still room within those price caps, and there's great opportunity for people to get additional savings. So look, at the end of the day, my point is a simple one, which is that the big energy companies are being less aggressive with their sharpest market offers than the smaller ones. So give one of the smaller ones a call if you want to get your energy bill down. It's a simple way of actually putting pressure on those big energy companies. Now we will put additional pressure-

LAURA JAYES: [Talks over] Well with that said, why is now the time to introduce this big stick legislation? Because it has been described as a blunt instrument. This is something that the Business Council and others haven't supported.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well the Business Council has been much more equivocal about it in the last few days, and they recognise we have a mandate, and they recognise that middle Australia needs a fair deal on energy so, you know we’re seeing comments from them in the last 24 hours- 

LAURA JAYES: [Talks over] But you have made some changes - there's a sunset clause that's made it a bit more palatable.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Sorry Laura, I missed that.

LAURA JAYES: There's a sunset clause that you've injected into this that makes it a little bit more palatable, doesn't it?

ANGUS TAYLOR: That was always there, Laura, but look, there's a number of things in this legislation that we brought forward in the last Parliament, that are really important to understand. The sunset clause is one, look these are reforms that we hope can be temporary as the market gets back to behaving the way it should. The divestment orders which is only for the most egregious of behaviour, and there's graduation of remedies all the way up to that through notices to fines, those divestment orders can only be given with a recommendation from the ACCC and a court order applied for by the Treasurer. So there are many safeguards here, but, but it is legislation which can hold the big energy companies to account, and that's what needs to happen as this market comes back to behaving the way it should be behaving, Laura. There's a whole series of reforms, including several of the ones we've talked about today, that are all about holding the big energy companies to account and bringing the market back to providing a fair deal for those hardworking small businesses and households of Australia. This legislation is one of those important reforms.

LAURA JAYES: So you think the threat alone will help bring down power prices even more? Do you have any idea by how much?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well it's more than a threat. I mean this is legislation which will be used if it needs to be used. Now we all hope it doesn't need to be because we all hope the energy companies do the right thing. But this is legislation that says to the energy companies you have to behave the right way in wholesale markets, you have to behave the right way in contract markets and in the retail market, and if you do, get on with it, great. But if behaviour is as the ACCC's described it historically - unacceptable and unsustainable - then it does give some combination of the ACCC, the Treasurer and courts the ability to act and hold the big energy companies to account.

LAURA JAYES: Minister, just quickly - yes or no. Is the science settled on climate change? [Laughter]

ANGUS TAYLOR: I've long believed that climate change was happening and that humans were contributing to that, Laura. [Audio skip] I spend my days wondering about. I mean the evidence is more than clear enough for us to take sensible actions. That's why we're taking sensible actions. But those have got to be actions that don't trash the economy, that do the right thing by jobs and investment, and that's the balance we have to get right.

LAURA JAYES: Okay. I'll take that as a yes. Angus Taylor, thanks so much for your time.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks Laura.