GREG JENNETT: Ed Husic, always good to have you on the program, this time from Jakarta on a visit that takes in Singapore as well as Indonesia. 

I understand electric vehicle collaboration is on the agenda for discussions there in Indonesia. Isn't it the case that local EV manufacturing in Indonesia is through joint ventures with Korean and Chinese vehicle companies operating there? And if that's the case, how does becoming enmeshed in those arrangements work potentially for Australia? 

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: I guess it happens at a number of levels, Greg. Clearly you do need to have a joint venture arrangement with a number of the car makers internationally.

We've had previous Coalition governments drive those makers offshore in Australia. But those effective partnerships do need to be created and governments have a role to play in sending a signal about their desire for that to happen. 

And obviously in EVs it’s completely different to what we are driving at the moment in terms of the internal combustion engines being made up of a lot of parts. There are different elements of the supply chain where we can work ourselves in. It's not just recognition of possessing the resources, it's the value-add and creating them into the things that are needed. And in the case of Australia and Indonesia, Indonesia has huge stores of nickel, we have huge stores of lithium, and working together, it's got the potential to be a very powerful relationship.

GREG JENNETT: As you say, globalised supply chains, China is enmeshed in that. Part of the purpose of the National Reconstruction Fund as it operates back here in Australia is to have more independence, more self-reliance against Chinese domination of things like lithium batteries. 

So, if you were to enter into arrangements or partnerships with Indonesia, would you seek to impose anti leakage mechanisms so that Chinese firms making cars in Indonesia didn't indirectly benefit from Australian lithium?

ED HUSIC: I think that's a situation you're sketching out that's way beyond where we're contemplating at the moment. I think countries, Greg, coming out of the Pandemic are recognising that their dependency on concentrated or broken supply chains wasn't working in their interests, they now realise they've got to do things differently. 

And clearly we have one of our great neighbours in Indonesia going through this exercise themselves. They're very focused on decarbonization, industrialisation and also embracing digital technology to drive their economy into the years ahead. And we've got similar ambitions. 

And having similar ambitions between good friends like ours is a really important ingredient and being able to build up capabilities in key areas. You've referenced the National Reconstruction Fund. That's exactly what we're trying to do in the Australian case, but where we can work with neighbours like Indonesia on shared objectives and shared ambitions, this is really important. 

It's good for our prosperity, it's good for regional prosperity. It is a really good way to bring and build stronger relations to the table.

GREG JENNETT: Indonesia, magnificent country though it is, in planning and execution of national endeavours, hasn't always, particularly through Industry, got the sequencing right. I wonder if their ambition on electric vehicles might fall into that category. 

I see their Energy and Minerals Resources Ministry reported 439 fast charging stations in the country. This is 270,000,000 people. 439 rapid charging stations for EVs. Are they working the wrong sequence here in trying to get the cars going before they've addressed coal fired generation and rapid charging, which presumably should probably come first.

ED HUSIC: You're right, they're a huge country and that's right on our doorstep and they're starting a journey just like we are in terms of recognising that there's this huge appetite in the minds of the public, both in Indonesia and Australia to embrace EVs and having that infrastructure in place doesn't happen through the snap of the fingers. 

It does take, I mean you're right to point out how few charging stations there are, but that will be the case naturally, at the start of the journey. Are they doing anything about it? Absolutely they are. I visited Hyundai here, just outside of Jakarta. 

And that is a big focus in working with the government on boosting the charging infrastructure, just like we are doing. The Albanese government started that process in Australia to start ramping up infrastructure. We're all at the start of that journey, as I said, and working with car makers and trying to get that charging infrastructure in place. They know what they've got to do. 

And in terms of you referenced with respect to ambition and reality, the Indonesian government signed an MoU with Hyundai back in 2019 and I visited here in 2023 a plant that started to make those cars right now. So, there is definitely a keenness and enthusiasm by the government here to do that. They've signalled it repeatedly. 

They want to work with people to make that happen and we've got opportunities to work with them on that as well. In our own case, I think the big challenge for us is to get energy storage systems, Greg, as we make the transition to more renewable energy generation in Australia. Batteries, while they're important for EVs, they're also important. 

There's an appetite to see them in homes and businesses in heavier industry. And that's why we are working on currently the development of a National Battery Strategy to ensure we'd get that value add. We've got some of the greatest sources of minerals on the planet. We now need to convert that into something that is more meaningful and also creates a lot of economic opportunity back home.

GREG JENNETT: Well, it does sound like fair bit of scope for you to further expand this collaboration with Indonesia and a leg coming up in Singapore. Just briefly, Ed Husic, what's on the agenda for that particular country so different in many ways to Indonesia.

ED HUSIC: Yeah, well, Singapore, too, despite people would think with its size, they underestimate the capability of Singapore, particularly in terms of digital economy, in terms of innovation. It's got a really vibrant early stage innovation system. A lot of startups over there. We've got some great opportunity, but it's one thing to talk about it, it's another thing to do something about it, and it really gets built on governments and businesses working close together in the first instance. 

And that's in terms of what we're doing here in Indonesia, looking at in Singapore, we've got also Malaysia. We've got some great countries right at our doorstep that we can deepen our working relationships with and have a win win for all those countries and ourselves.

GREG JENNETT: Ed Husic. Safe travels. We'll talk you again soon.

ED HUSIC: Thanks Greg I appreciate your time.