PATRICIA KARVELAS: The early evidence suggests the Federal Government's intervention on energy markets has had the desired effect with the Budget showing bills will go up by 10 per cent instead of the expected 36 per cent. 

But that hasn't stopped the gas industry criticising Government intervention, which has been a theme at this week's Australian Petroleum Production and Exploration Association Conference. 

In a speech to the Energy Users Conference later today, the Minister for Industry and Science, Ed Husic, will defend the Government's approach, saying cheap energy is essential to the economy, and of course, the industry he represents. 

He joins me in the studio now. Minister, welcome to the program. 

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: Hi. It's amazing I got blamed for cutting off discussions around sport, especially when I'm in Melbourne, but that's just life, isn't it? 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I know, I set you up. 

ED HUSIC: I appreciate that, sorry, Warwick. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We're going to talk about your speech in a moment, but how much of a blow is the US President's decision to postpone his visit to Australia in terms of the success of this QUAD Summit? 

ED HUSIC: Look, obviously it's regrettable, but it's also understandable. He's got very big pressures at home in terms of the way that Congress is potentially going to make decisions around the debt ceiling, so you'll appreciate he's got to make those calls, but we've got this very strong relationship with the US. 

It's obviously being strengthened by things that we're doing around AUKUS, for instance, plus a lot of the work that we can do together in light of the Inflation Reduction Act, being able to reduce emissions, increase manufacturing capability in our respective countries. So I think, you know, if he's not here now, he'll be some time down the track, and we'll be warmly welcoming him at that point. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: He is staying, as you say, to resolve negotiations with Congress over lifting the debt ceiling. What happens if he fails in the US defaults; how would that be felt in the Australian economy? 

ED HUSIC: I think he will obviously be working very hard for that situation to not happen. We've danced this dance before, as the phrase goes; we've seen what's previously been the case there in terms of when Congress has decided to take or make a call that runs contrary to fixing that and resolving that situation really quickly. So I reckon we'll let this play out, but I think we'll get to a good place, and I think that's why he's wanting to stay there to focus on just that. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Moving to your portfolio issues the gas industry wants certainty for future investment. Minister, if we're trying to reduce our emissions and to switch to renewables, how many more gas plants are you actually expecting to be built? 

ED HUSIC: There is clearly going to be a role, as we transition, and we're working very hard to ensure that we get that transition under way, setting targets, putting in Safeguard Mechanisms, some of the investments we're making in renewable energy generation, in my space within the National Reconstruction Fund, we're looking to build that, but in the interim, gas still plays a role, and I talk to a lot of industries that rely on gas. 

You've seen some fairly big announcements in terms of what might happen with Narrabri and Beetaloo, and I know that that's not everyone's cup of tea, but I imagine that in the interim, those fields will meet domestic needs while we work very hard on attending to boosting renewable energy generation. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: They don't meet everyone's cup of tea, as you put it, because ...    

ED HUSIC: That's the very gentle way in which I'm saying it. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You are, but we're meant to get to net zero, we need to reduce emissions, we know that the planet is warming; that's why they don't meet people's cup of tea criteria. 

ED HUSIC: Yes. No, I know. But we're also a Government that is committed to a target; we've committed to net zero, and we're beyond the talk, we're walking the walk, with respect to    

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Aren't you trying to have it both ways? 

ED HUSIC:  ...  scale up - well, I'm just making the point that if you look at the commitment to those - we will get there, factoring all these things, and we are determined to make sure we send the strongest possible signal to industry that that we need to work together to make that happen. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: APPEA, who's the body representing oil and gas companies says it wants the price caps to end by 2025 and they're preparing to launch a multi million-dollar advertising campaign. If energy prices return to more normal levels, then could price caps be lifted? 

ED HUSIC: We've said that we want to improve the way that the gas market, if you can call it that at this point, and I've obviously spoken about my frustrations in how it's operated over the last few months, but if the gas market now reforms through the mandatory code work, and we see that stabilisation, then we absolutely would be looking to do that; that's just a reality. 

But we do need to ensure that the way in which these contracts get negotiate, that they get negotiated in a much better way than what we've experienced. 

So we want to be able to bring those prices down, and ensure that everyone's clearly aware of what their rights and their opportunities are. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So there is a chance still that beyond 2025 you would continue it if you don't get those settings in this period right? 

ED HUSIC: I think our preference is to get - and I've said this before - I only ever saw the price cap stabilise in a really difficult situation last year. My big thing is to ensure that the bargaining framework is right and that we don't have to have these interventions. That's the big thing. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But you can't guarantee it? 

ED HUSIC: No, I think our preference is - my preference is certainly, as an Industry Minister, we get rid of the caps as soon as we can, and the best way to do that is to have a stabilised environment, one, and a better bargaining framework. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And is it your view that that better bargaining framework is about to be delivered? 

ED HUSIC: We're hoping through the mandatory code; we're working through both the producers and the consumers, and they're represented in large part by the EUAA that I'm speaking with later this morning, and if we get that right, then yeah, we won't need to have that type of intervention, and frankly, as I've said before, we didn't really want to go down this path of intervening in the way that we did. We would much rather that the gas producers have listened to the sort of collective voice of the nation saying, "Can you just slow down a bit, and deal with this yourselves".  They didn't. We had to; we had a responsibility in the national interest to do so. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: On the PRRT, your Government went for - I've called it before the "low balling", the sort of the least tax they could possibly pay over the forward estimates. Yes, you get it quickly, but you could have gone higher. The Greens say, "Why didn't you go higher?" And I've got to say, in the community, certainly there's a sentiment I get every day on the text line, which is, why did you go for that particular extraction of tax? Do you think you should have been more ambitious? 

ED HUSIC: Well, again, I'm a big believer in being consistent; right? I said last year, when we got these calls to, as one way to deal with the escalation in prices, to raise taxes, and I said at that point in time that I didn't think that was the way to go, because it wouldn't really resolve, or make it easier to resolve the situation, one; two, I think the Treasurer's tried to find the right balance in terms of how we tax, so tax is a solution to the energy problems we'd confronted last year, I didn't think would work, the Treasurer's gone through a process that had been started by the Coalition    

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But isn't it a missed opportunity? 

ED HUSIC: No, I don't think so. I think we've reached the right balance in terms of what we ...   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But if the industry's applauding, doesn't that give you all of the sort of hints you need, that they don't feel particularly stressed by it? 

ED HUSIC: Well, they can't - I mean, they can applaud it just like they've applauded the fact that they've made a contribution to our bottom line, as you saw a few weeks ago, when they were talking about what they provided in terms of tax receipts and the support there. So I think a bigger thing is trying to get all these different things working in a way that obviously satisfies our obligations to the broader tax paying public, but also ensures that we've got a good or a better functioning gas market as well. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You're giving a speech today to the Energy Users Conference; the industries that are being affected by energy price increases and supply issues, that's the ...  

ED HUSIC: Yeah. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You say the balance isn't right between the focus on them and gas producers. Why? 

ED HUSIC: Well, because I think that well, frankly, the gas producers, every time they use their very gold plated multinational megaphone, they seem to get a lot of attention in terms of them claiming that life's really tough for them, and miraculously claiming that there won't be investment in gas at a time where the prices are where they are, and using that effectively to try and spook people out of taking actions, which we just will not be spooked. 

We do need to get the balance right, and I know that the impact of those high prices are felt by manufacturers who represent half the domestic demand for gas, industrial users are huge users of gas because they need to, and there are a lot of jobs that are tied in that, particularly in the outer suburbs and the regions. And you know, I mean they will continually find every reason, anything we've done, as I have said previously, any single thing that we do they will oppose, and they will propose nothing to sort this out, they want to be able to let it rip for as long as they can, and unfortunately Governments can't necessarily allow that to occur. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just a couple of other issues, on carbon capture and storage, Resources Minister Madeleine King says they're a necessary part of the decarbonisation effort. APPEA says they want to develop more carbon capture. Are you convinced it works, and why didn't you fund it in the Budget, if you are? 

ED HUSIC: I have a personal view. Look, if the technology stacks up, great. But I haven't taken the view that it's all bad, and I haven't taken the view that it's all great, until it stacks up. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And it doesn't stack up yet? 

ED HUSIC: I haven't seen it yet, to be honest. I'm being as direct as I can with you, and I've said this elsewhere; it really hasn't shown that it's been able to work at scale. I think theoretically it's really important that we be able to do it; it would be great if we can do it. But until such time as it does    

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So is that why we haven't seen the investment? 

ED HUSIC: I think in part, yeah. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So what's she talking about? 

ED HUSIC: No, I think - sorry, who are you referring to? 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The Minister. 

ED HUSIC: There are a number of us that do want to see - like whether or not it can. In the sort of medium term, short to medium term horizon, haven't seen it, but obviously there will be people, and particularly in the industry, that want to, and by all means go ahead. But I think we're trying to maximise the investment, particularly in terms of the renewable technology that we know is here before us. Wind and solar in particular will give us the best bang for the buck, and there are people that are working to improve the efficiency, especially in solar, for example, and how much energy we can get out of that technology, and we're clearly focussed a lot on that in the interim. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Your plan to develop a domestic battery manufacturing industry has alarmed South Korean investors. There's a major Korean investor in Australian iron ore and lithium and gas and hydrogen, POSCO is their name, and their Managing Director, Ben Kim, has said Australia should stick to its strengths rather than trying to push into its allies' markets. Are you muscling into your allies' markets? 

ED HUSIC: I like the fact that I'm part of a Government that's got ambition; that we see that really, we are not just going to be the world's quarry, and that we can do more value add, and that that means a lot more for, not only Australia, but for the rest of the world. We have this great store of critical minerals and rare earths, and we should be looking, and there are people are here that are saying, and advising us that we can do more in the value chain. 

And so, you know, I also noticed in those comments the concern that we were trying to "muscle out", I think was the phrase, or it might have been the phrase, others instead of working with Korea or Japan, you know, by all means pick up the phone and talk to us, because that's exactly what we also want to do, is to team up with like minded nations, and I just - I've got to say - I get a little bit tired of the megaphone diplomacy that we're copping. We wouldn't go into those markets and be sort of poking people on the forehead telling them what to do, and I think maybe ...   

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So you're saying "butt out" to ...    

ED HUSIC: No, I'm actually saying there's a better way to do business, and I think Australians expect that their Government will act in the national interest, and that we won't, just because we've got some criticism, instantly fold and melt. I think we've got to be able to do what's right, and I think a lot of Australians do, and even in the mining sector as well, think, if we can value add, why don't we do it, and if it's greater economic benefit, and in this case a benefit of reducing emissions, increasing jobs and economic activity, we should seize that opportunity, and we should have the ambition to do so. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just final question, and I'm about to talk to our next guest about it, there's polling out today in the nine papers saying showing that the yes case is slipping for a referendum for a Voice to Parliament. 

Now, you're in a Government that's certainly pushing this referendum, and is pushing for a yes case. Are you losing? 

ED HUSIC: At this point in time, I think to make that call, I think that's a very bold move, if I can ...    

PATRICIA KARVELAS: It was a question. 

ED HUSIC: Can I say, we're going to have polls that will show support increasing, decreasing; we've got a journey to go through at the moment in terms of working with people.    

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Does it show you have a lot of work though? 

ED HUSIC: Well, no, I think we've got a journey to go through to explain the benefit of this to the nation and the importance of doing this. We will have, as I said, polls that indicate different outcomes, but we're very focused on getting to the point where we get majority support for yes, and we'll work with people to get there. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thank you for your time, Ed Husic. 

ED HUSIC: And for yours. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Industry and Science Minister, Ed Husic, there, and you're listening to RN Breakfast.

ENDS