PATRICIA KARVELAS: Later this morning, the Commonwealth Solicitor General will hand down his advice on the secret ministry scandal that’s gripped the nation for the past week. But for now, it remains unknown whether former Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s swearing himself into five other portfolios was illegal or unconstitutional. It is considered a serious breach though of convention. It’s also been revealed that Scott Morrison took control of the Modern Manufacturing Initiative, approving 17 projects right before the federal election, more than half in Coalition held seats. Ed Husic is the Minister for Industry and Science and our guest. Minister, welcome. 

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: Good morning, how are you, Patricia? 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I’m good. $828 million worth of grants were approved in March; just three of the projects were in safe Labor seats. Many of the projects are nationally significant. Is this pork barrelling? 

ED HUSIC: I’d been concerned for quite some time, putting aside all the other things that we saw, which were significant, in terms of commuter car parks, sports rorts, and regional road rorts and all the like. I was concerned last year when I saw that Scott Morrison had made himself the decision-maker. I wrote to him, and his people didn’t think there was any issue with that. And then we’d gone through all those lockdowns where industry could have dealt, or used, that support back then at that time to get back on their feet, and instead of prioritising the national interests, the Coalitions prioritise political interests and they announced the bulk of these manufacturing grants right before the election. I just think this is a hallmark of the way that the Liberals have approached the use of taxpayers’ funds which isn’t good. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you accept the explanation that the former Prime Minister needed to give final approval because the projects actually covered several ministerial portfolios? 

ED HUSIC: No, I don’t accept that whatsoever, and that at its heart, that is the issue with the industry portfolio, is that it will cut across a number of portfolios, and you do need to consult work with others. I think that is a very convenient retrofit by the Prime Minister of the day, Scott Morrison, to claim that he should have that type of involvement. 

Now, the collaboration grants that you’re referring to – that $828 million – now the issue with that in terms of unpicking it is that its collaboration. It’s bringing a number of companies together to solve something or to build up scale in manufacturing capability; it could be across a number of different areas. So, I would sort of say, one, you’ve got to take that into account. And the other point I’d make, too, with a lot of these grants. I mean, I’ve dealt with a lot of these firms themselves. They’re trying to do the right thing by industry and jobs, and I really feel for them that they, in good faith, entered this process, and now they have been brought into a political maelstrom by virtue of nothing other than they sought what they thought was a good grant program to help them grow. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, when did the review of the grants start? Was it really only after the revelation about Scott Morrison’s powers was revealed or was it actually in search of Budget savings? 

ED HUSIC: No, no. I took that step to look at those grants when I’d learnt a number of things as an incoming Minister. One, that a lot of these things had been announced and hadn’t even gone to contract stage. Now, if contracts had been signed, I’d sent the signal as the incoming industry Minister, we would honour contract; we weren’t going to tear contracts up. But when they hadn’t gone to contract stage, I did want to take the time to review them given the history of the Coalition and the way that they had rorted public money regularly through the course of their time in office. And so, that was commenced in June, that review, and we have been going through that process in a methodical way. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, does that mean all 17 of these projects will go ahead? 

ED HUSIC: We are going through that review, and we are hoping to make an announcement shortly on that. The other thing – 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, some – just, sorry. I just want to nail this down. 

ED HUSIC: Sure. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The 17, you’re saying some may not go forward? 

ED HUSIC: No, what I’m telling you is we’re going through the review, and we’ll make an announcement on decisions. If I’m telling you that, you know, some get cut, that’s pre-empting the outcome of that review. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, some might, though. I’m just figuring out if that is an option on the table. 

ED HUSIC: Let me put it this way. Again, that review we’re going through, it is a very big call to take money off the table from industries or businesses that have factored that in, so we’re very mindful of a number of things and that’s why we’re going through the review. And the other point I just want to make as well, while the Coalition was very quick to make announcements about these - and they were announced just before the federal election, and in some cases just before the state election in March - no doubt to try and rub some of that glitter off onto the State Liberal Government there. The Coalition failed to tell anyone who was unsuccessful. And they are a lot of companies that applied but they didn’t get a grant, and, so, there are a lot of people that are hanging out to find out what’s going on, which is unfair for those companies. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So, who’s conducting the review and who will be the final decision-maker on the grants? 

ED HUSIC: Well, that’s an internal process that I’ve led effectively; and I’m going through it and consulting with the department and considering the advice that I’m being given. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: When will the Government find out the result of the review, is it before or after the Budget? 

ED HUSIC: I’m hoping it’ll be very soon. My intent is to do it before the Budget. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to move to another issue – actually, no, I do want to ask you actually one other question on that I just recall. This is whether you think that the National Audit Office should examine this. Do you think that should be elevated to that or do you think it can be handled as you’re going forward with this review that you are heading? 

ED HUSIC: I’m conscious about giving advice to the National Audit Office. I respect that they independently make their calls in many respects. I think, you know, the good thing about the public discussion around the way in which the Coalition made calls and misused taxpayer funds is it’s put a big focus on the way that we do these things and to improve the processes and meet the community expectation that you do stuff in the national interests and not political interests. So, I do take that on board, but I’m not going to be giving advice to the ANAO by your good program if you don’t mind. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Fair enough. It was worth a question. 

ED HUSIC: I understand. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Look, on pork-barrelling as a broader problem – and I think “problem” is definitely a word I can use for it because the public is red hot with rage about pork-barrelling. The Grattan Institute says make the departments, make the public servants actually in charge of this. Why doesn’t Labor embark on that recommendation from the Grattan Institute so that you can actually be at arm’s length from this? 

ED HUSIC: Because I think parliamentarians are elected to represent both community and national interests at the federal level, and I do think you need to do the right thing. I don’t think we should all be tarred with the Coalition brush, and we should have the ability to be – there is a lot more option to be accountable as a parliamentarian if you do go the way that the Coalition did. I think the Coalition did in part – there are a range of reasons why they lost. But one of them was that people felt like they weren’t doing the right job in the community interest, and everything was prioritised. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But people hate pork-barrelling whether it’s Labor or Liberal. 

ED HUSIC: Yes, they do; correct. But my point is, Patricia, parliamentarians are up for the judgement of the people every three years or so and if they have done the wrong thing, they should be done that way. I do get concerned if you just spin it all off to, you know, departmental people, with the greatest of respect; the accountability is much sharper when you come to an election. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The constitutional experts we’ve been speaking to over the last week doubt the former Prime Minister’s actions were unconstitutional or illegal. Today, we of course get the Solicitor General’s advice; that hasn’t happened yet so we can’t let our audience know what’s in it. Do you think the Government should support a broader probe into all of this, into the way Scott Morrison handled this? 

ED HUSIC: I reckon I’m going to let the PM make that call. I think that –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: What’s your view, Ed Husic, Minister for Industry? 

ED HUSIC: Yes; no. Nice one; not first rodeo. I just make this point. The PM will take the advice of the Solicitor General, will obviously consider that advice and talk to us. He’s very good in terms of bringing these issues to Cabinet and we’ll consider it as part of that process, no doubt. So, I’m going to let the PM do his thing there. 

I do think more broadly, if I may just sort of make this point, for people who say that they are backers of constitutional monarchy and the role of the Governor General, boy they put that Governor General in a terrible spot, like totally disrespected him by putting him in this spot. And I do feel for them, and I do feel that it’s not just a Scott Morrison thing, because when I hear the very lame defences of former Ministers that are now in senior roles in the opposition, it’s like they haven’t learnt, and they’d be quite prepared, from the sounds of it, for that to continue again. I really do feel for our Governor General in the way that he’s been put in that position. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Should the Governor General and the public service be included in a broader inquiry? 

ED HUSIC: Sorry, I just said that earlier answer. I’m going to leave that to the PM. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you agree with the Assistant Minister for the Republic, Matt Thistlethwaite, that these events would be less likely to happen if Australia was a republic? 

ED HUSIC: Well, I do think that it would be good to have, in many respects, our own head of state that’s disconnected from the monarchy that’s on the other side of the world, and I’ve been a big supporter of republicanism. But I have to say, in this case, it is about us and, in particular, the Coalition respecting the way in which things should work properly. I notice that Barnaby Joyce interview yesterday, he said that people out there aren’t talking about this. They may not be, but they do expect the parliamentarians and the Governments will follow the proper process to ensure that proper accountability does occur, and it was a hallmark of that former Government that they don’t have any respect for accountability for being transparent about the way they make decisions, be it on the way they make grants or the way in which they run their portfolios. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Former Deputy Prime Minister, that you just mentioned, Barnaby Joyce, told David Speers yesterday he didn’t know most of Morrison’s secret portfolio arrangements, but he didn’t challenge the former Prime Minister over the decision around PEP 11 because he feared the Nationals would lose a ministry and the additional staff that comes with it that he’d manage to secure as he describes it. What did you make of that? Should this be part of an inquiry, too, the sort of horse-trading if you like on ministerial positions, staff, all of it? 

ED HUSIC: Well, high level – trying to follow that interview with Barnaby Joyce yesterday was like trying to plot the course of static. I just, there was so much in there. But I will make the point that on that last issue around portfolios, it reinforces my earlier point, that you should be doing your job based on what’s in the national interest or what you feel is the right thing to do rather than going, “Well, if I make that call, I’m going to lose my positions.” And this is again a reinforcement that either in government or in opposition, this is the mentality that runs through the Liberal and National Parties about the way that they get their job done, and I don’t think it’s right and I don’t think people expect it to be done that way. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ed Husic, thank you for joining us. 

ED HUSIC: Thanks, Patricia. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister for Industry and Science, Ed Husic.

ENDS