ANDREW CLENELL: Angus Taylor, thanks for joining us.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks for having me, Andrew.

ANDREW CLENELL: Boris Johnson says it’s a minute to midnight in terms of the need for climate action. Do you agree with him? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, it is important to act, there’s no doubt about it. But let me tell you, Andrew, that the real issue is how, and that’s always been the great challenge of bringing down emissions, and our answer is technology, not taxes. We are seeing enormous interest now in the approach Australia is taking, which is targeting getting key technologies down to competitiveness with the higher emitting alternatives. That means bringing down the costs, and it means that you can actually reduce emissions without imposing on people’s cost of living, without destroying jobs, and without hurting our traditional industries. And that's the approach we're taking. I’m talking about it with my colleagues from around the world today and seeing enormous interest in it, as we always have, whether that’s hydrogen, low emissions steel and aluminium, whether it’s storing more carbon in our soils, whether it's carbon capture and storage. And, of course, we’ve seen Santos announce a major carbon capture and storage project in Australia they’ve got to financial close on the back of including that in the Emissions Reduction Fund. All of these are technologies that can make the difference, that can drive down emissions not just in Australia but all around the world.

ANDREW CLENELL: All right. But the net zero emissions target without a higher medium term target and a lot of talk about technologies will help us get there. If technologies will help us get there why do we even need a target? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, at the end of the day the world is seeking to get to an outcome by a particular date, and we’re part of that.. So it’s appropriate that we set targets and goals that are aligned with that, and we’ve done exactly that. In fact, we’re going to meet and beat our 2030 target that you just mentioned by a long way. We’re now on track to beat it by – to get our emissions by up to 35 per cent, Andrew, so that’s an extraordinary achievement. And a lot of that is technology at work. I mean, energy efficiency technologies that have been used by industry, even in households, LED lighting, which is making a real difference to energy efficiency in the house; the highest rate of household solar in the world; installation of renewables way higher than most countries in the world and beating levels across all types of renewables. So Australians are doing this. We’re getting on with it, which is why we’ve got a good story to tell. That’s why our emissions are down by 20.8 per cent, faster than any other big commodity exporter in the world. And it’s why we are telling that important story here and why we’re also talking so much about how we do this and doing it the right way. 

ANDREW CLENELL: You say the world’s setting targets, but from the G20, they’re not really, are they? Because India doesn’t want to do net zero 2050, China doesn’t want to do it. What do you make of all this, that the world can’t come to agreement on this, particularly when the Australian government’s gone further than it has before? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, the great challenge with this – and it’s been true for a long, long time, Andrew – is to reconcile economic growth, which, of course, every developing growth wants – countries like India and China and elsewhere – with bringing down emissions. And now one way to try to reconcile that is to impose a tax, and that’s been an idea that’s been around for a long while. Labor in Australia did it. We took it away. And there’s lots of talk about doing more of that, but in doing that all you do is raise the costs of electricity, the raise the cost of energy and destroy the jobs. The alternative is to bring down the costs of low emissions technologies, and countries throughout the world, particularly the developing world, can then deploy these technologies, put them in place without destroying jobs, without making their economy worse off. But – so that’s the way to do it. And we’re convinced that by continuing to invest in the R&D, playing that leadership role that we have on these technologies for many, many years and will for many years to come, we can make a real difference, not just bringing down our emissions but others. And in doing so, we can avoid destroying industries in the way that some would like us to do. 

ANDREW CLENELL: All right. Well, Mathias Cormann, former cabinet colleague of yours, says there should be a carbon price everywhere. What do you say to that? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, I mean, he works for the OECD now. I mean, he’s in a very different role, and his views are his views. But our view is very clear – we’re not in favour of a carbon tax. We’re not in favour of raising the price of electricity. We’re not in favour of destroying jobs in our traditional industries. And we don’t believe we need to. In fact, we’ve laid out very clearly a set of targets that are the ones that really count – getting those low emissions technologies to cost competitiveness. Look, we’ve seen solar come down in its cost for 50 years 12 per cent a year, year on year on year on year – 50 years. And, of course, the result of that is that 90 per cent of the solar in the world has been deployed in the last 10 years. They get to a point – technologies get to a point of cost competitiveness where investment is natural because it’s productive and it works for people. We’ve seen that. Many of your viewers will have solar on their roofs, and they’re doing it because it helps them manage their electricity bills, and good on them for doing it. So that’s how you do this. That’s how you solve this problem. Australia knows that better than most countries in the world, and it’s why we’ve got such a strong track record, despite criticisms from some. No shortage of people wanting to talk Australia down. I’ll keep talking Australia up. 

ANDREW CLENELL: Why do you think the Europeans are so keen on the tax-type measures, the tariff-type measures? Why do they have such a different view to us? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, I mean, that’s a matter for them. Ask them. But, at the end of the day, we, like many developing countries, still have many of those traditional industries like agriculture, like mining, like heavy manufacturing, that are energy intensive, and so we’re move sensitive to raising the cost of energy. That’s why in Australia we are determined not to raise the cost of energy. In fact, we’ve seen the cost of energy contained. I mean, it’s basically where it was when we first came into government. We saw it rise every year under Labor and when they were last in government rise by over 100 per cent in their time in government. So keeping energy costs down is crucial. Developing countries and other big commodity exporters understand that. Obviously that’s less a part of the European economy than it might have been in the past. So they tend to have a different view. 

ANDREW CLENELL: You seem to talk a lot about the economic plan and how net zero will affect markets. But will it ultimately mean less bushfires, less floods or not as many if the world can commit to that sort of target? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yeah, I mean, look, ultimately this is about reducing risks for the world. That’s what it’s about. And we know those risks go up as your emissions go up. The science on that is pretty clear, and we’ve got to do our bit. But, at the end of the day, there is no solution without a global solution, which is why the focus on technology is so important. 

ANDREW CLENELL: Will this mean more of us end up driving electronic cars as they be-come cheaper? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, that’s a choice. I mean, if people want to drive an electronic car – 

ANDREW CLENELL: No, before they become so cheap. That’s how it will happen. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Andrew, if you want to drive an electronic car, knock yourself out, go for it. There will be increasing usage of electronic cars, just as there is with hybrids. We’re seeing hybrids around particularly our cities now. I mean, dramatic increase in usage – doubling in the last year. Why? Because the economics work for people. And that’s what happens with emerging technologies – they come into line, they become cost competitive and people start using them. And so when people want to buy an electronic vehicle because it’s good for them, that’s fantastic. We’ll make sure the infrastructure is there to support that, but it’s their choice. And this is the crucial piece of our plan. Technology, not taxes. Choices, not mandates. We’re not going to tell people what to do. That’s not our instinct. We believe in trust – believe in and trust the Australian people, and they are the centre piece of the plan – the Australian people and their choices with technologies that will allow them to reduce emissions without having them – these technologies imposed on them when they’re high cost. 

ANDREW CLENELL: In the old days, these summits, you used to come along as a minister and the Prime Minister used to come along and you used to nut out each country’s targets. Why did it change and what do you think of how it is now, that everyone just arrives with their plan? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, it did change when you moved from Kyoto to the Paris era. Paris was one of the COPs that has been the most successful historically because it was about nationally determined contributions. It was bottom up. So it said to countries, “You commit what you’re capable of.” You want a common focus on bringing down emissions, but you want it to be differentiated. So Australia is very different from the UK. It’s very different from France. And just as India is very different from Germany. I mean – and so recognising that is important. So it has changed. I think that bottom-up process is important. But that’s where technology comes in – allowing countries to adopt technologies at a pace that works for them as the costs come down. That’s the sensible way of solving that problem. There’s lots who really want to just get in control of the economy and tell people what to do. That will never be our approach. 

ANDREW CLENELL: And what do you expect from the rest of this summit? Is it going to be what Boris Johnson fears – just not the success he wants? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, I tell you the success we’re looking for – number one is to talk Australia up, talk about the Australian way of doing this, the Australian approach, which is focused on technology, not taxes. But the second piece is increase our collaborations with countries around the world in makes these technologies work. And that’s collaborations with other governments but also with the private sector. We’ve seen Santos commit to this major carbon capture and storage project. Lots of people saying the economics don’t work. Well, you better talk to Santos about that because they’ve made a very big commitment to that today. And so those collaborations, both public and private, the public sector side we’ve entered into agreements with the Singapore government, the German government, the Japanese, Korea now and the list goes on. Those collaborations with crucial because once you’ve solved the hard problem, once you’ve got a technology working, it works for everybody. And so collaboration with countries around the world on this is crucial. 

ANDREW CLENELL: So Boris Johnson’s more pessimistic than you. You’re quietly optimistic in this area. You think technology will just get us there eventually? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: No, you’ve got to work it. You’ve got to invest in it. We’re investing $20 billion in R&D. I mean, we’re a big investor in R&D as a country and have been for a long while. We’ve led the way on solar. Ninety per cent of the solar cells around the world have got Australian intellectual property in them. So we are playing a leadership role. But, yes, I’m optimistic about the role of technology in solving this problem. I’m much less optimistic about whether sending in a central planner to tell people what kind of car to drive or what kind of food to eat will ever work, and it’s not something we will ever support. So I’m optimistic about the approach to this that we are taking, which is an Australian approach and one that’s working for us. 

ANDREW CLENELL: Thanks so much for your time. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Good on you.