Avani Dias: Joining us from the federal government now, Tim Wilson is the Assistant Energy Minister. Thanks so much for joining us on Triple J. 

Tim Wilson: Thanks so much for having me, Avani. 

Avani Dias: So you're not phasing out coal production or exports and your plan actually says quote, this is based on our existing policies. There is nothing really that new in it. What about these will actually get us any closer to Net Zero by 2050? 

Tim Wilson: Well, first of all, there's a lot new in this plan. Firstly, it's a clear commitment to cut our emissions to Net Zero by 2050. But then it's about prioritising technologies which are going to drive further emissions cuts in your package. Just then, you talked about why it is we're meeting and beating our targets? It's because in part, the uptake of low cost solar PV cells and now there's  a focus, particularly on ultra low cost solar and how we're going to deploy that across households in the Australian economy. And of course, as you also discussed, there's a critical role around energy efficiency, so everybody using less energy, which reduces our emissions profile. But of course, we're also looking at some really exciting breakthrough technologies, you know, close to where I am here in Canberra, where there's a company that's turning stored carbon into briquettes so that you can use, houses made out of the legacy of CO2 emissions and use it to build houses. So it's a really exciting time, and we're very excited about what we're able to achieve. 

Avani Dias: Okay, but the money you are putting into the sort of low emissions technologies is what you're calling it. In this plan, you're investing $20 billion into them. Things like carbon capture, which scientists say actually aren't massively proven to work. You're also putting money into clean hydrogen, which actually emits fossil fuels when you have to process it and produce it. Is that actually a good investment? Are you getting your bang for your buck there? 

Tim Wilson: Oh, absolutely. And firstly, carbon capture and storage is a technology that is critically used all around the world and will be critical for every country to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions footprint. The International Energy Agency says so. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says so, and we're very excited that we can actually be part of that global solution because we have huge reserves offshore, which will enable us to capture CO2 in different ways directly from power plants, direct out of air capture and put it underground as part of our solution. 

Avani Dias: But scientists do say it's unreliable, right? Why not invest this money into something that's sure to work renewable energies and getting more of them? I know you have invested in some, but why not just make that the future? That's what lots of your critics are saying at the moment. 

Tim Wilson: Because we have to do so many different things. There's no one silver bullet. There's no single solution to this challenge. We've got to, as I said, you know, another way of capturing carbon is to install it in briquettes that can then be used to build houses. There's so many different ways we can do those things. And when it comes to hydrogen, it's definitely true that using gas to create hydrogen today will create greenhouse gas emissions that we're going to have to capture. But over the next decade, between 2030 to 2035 using renewables to create hydrogen is going to become competitive under this plan, and that's why we're going to back it. And that's why it's such a critical part. And then we'll export it because we want to create jobs. We want to make a buck and improve the environment as well. 

Avani Dias: Tim Wilson someones texted. "The government has no idea. Gas and coal is just damaging no matter how much offset there is". And that kind of sums up a lot of criticism about your plan that's come out today, the fact that coal production and exports are still a part of it. How can we have coal, a massive fossil fuel emitter and still get to net zero by 2050? 

Tim Wilson: Because we're going to have the offsets directly through reforestation through carbon capture and storage. And again, this is not unique to Australia. Yes, we have a unique Australian plan for a unique Australian condition, but these are exactly the same technologies that are going to be used all around the world. And what we want to do is lead the conversation and become an exporter of these technologies so that we can build the wealth and opportunity for future Australian, as well as cleaning up our environmental legacy not just for Australia, but of course, to help other countries do the same. 

Avani Dias: Tim, also why coal, though? Why are you still making that a part of our energy in the next 30 years? We speak to coal miners on this show, young people in those industries who are saying, I know this isn't the future of work. I want to get trained up in other industries and other energy sectors. Why isn't the government helping me to do that? What do you say to those people? 

Tim Wilson: Well, but but coal is a critical part of our past. It's a necessary part of our present, but it will be a diminishing share of our future. And we're going to need those people with those skills to be part of the solution to invest in and build hydrogen hubs, which is we're looking at how we can co-locate those in communities, rural and regional. 

Avani Dias: There's nothing, though, just in your plan to actually do that. There's nothing saying, Oh, I'm going to invest in getting those workers skilled up to work in hydrogen or whatever are the renewable energies you want to choose? There's nothing in this plan that says that there? 

Tim Wilson: Well politely Avani, that's just flat out wrong. It's a hundred and thirty pages of a comprehensive economy wide solution to address exactly these types of challenges. And one of the parts of building hydrogen hubs, green steel hubs in the like is to actually get existing workers and move them and transform them into being part of a clean energy economy. That's precisely what we're doing. And that's what's so exciting about it is, yes, we're going to target by 2050 Net Zero. But more critically, we put out a comprehensive plan that goes through what we're going to do in each sector and there's more to come. 

Avani Dias: Tim Wilson, the plan you released today was a 15 page PowerPoint. 

Tim Wilson: No, it's not. It's a hundred and thirty page, 

Avani Dias: But that's not what you released to the public and what our audience and what scientists and what everyone can assess. That's not what you're showing us today, is it? 

Tim Wilson: No, no. It's actually available on the Industry Government website. So politely, that's not correct. We have released this information to the public so that people can see just how comprehensive this plan is. Now, there's absolutely a six page summary of the 16 page summary of it, but it's a summary of the 130 page document that has been released. The Prime Minister tabled it in question time today. That's how excited we are, and we want to share that because we want to build the jobs and opportunity of Australia's future, clean up the environment and actually make sure that young Australians can see how much we can be part of the global solution to the challenge of climate change. 

Avani Dias: All right. But the concern with the plan, regardless of how long it is, is that there doesn't seem to be an investment in transitioning people like coal miners out of those industries into jobs like how much money are you putting into transitioning those people and scaling them up into new jobs? That isn't money you've already committed before today? 

Tim Wilson: Well, we've already got, there's so many different parts of the plan from the $20 billion of particular targeted investment, as well as financing for renewable technologies. There's the money we're committing hundreds of millions of dollars, we're committing towards hydrogen hubs and the investment to try and create fuels of the future. There's so much in this plan. I recommend going reading one hundred and thirty pages because it actually goes through it step by step by step. And we want to make sure that when we're making these investments that they're serious, they're credible because too often we've judged climate change policy on intent rather than outcomes, and we're focused on how we deliver those outcomes. 

Avani Dias: Tim Wilson, we are going to come back to you in a sec because I do want to hear what young people think of your plan that you've released today, but before that, the text line is going absolutely off. Jack says "Aussie farmers are improving their inputs and are also the source for storing carbon in our soils and in our tree plantations." Pedro's texted "Knowing what we know about big business control of our federal government, we would be naive to expect anything different from the LNP." Text me your thoughts. What do you think of the government's plan to get to Net Zero? Very big commitment today, but is it enough? 0439 757 555.

[NEWS SEGMENT] 

Avani Dias: Jo Lauder with that story. We are still with Federal Assistant Energy Minister Tim Wilson talking to us about the Government's Net Zero by 2050 plan, which was released today. And Minister, one big criticism is that you haven't actually legislated this target into law. Why not? 

Tim Wilson: Well, firstly, because the targets need to be set by Governments, and that's what we've done today. None of the states, many of the states haven't legislated their targets. Most other countries don't legislate their targets because when you do that, what you actually do is empower people to make decisions outside of the Parliament. It just like a bill that was introduced into Parliament last year by the independent member for Warringah. She introduced a bill with a legislated target that empowered bureaucrats to literally veto the Parliament of Australia on climate change policy. 

Avani Dias: I'm not keen to talk about that bill, I'm keen to talk about your Net Zero commitment that you've you've brought forward. And the UK is one country which has legislated a Net Zero target by 2050, and a lot of critics and scientists and experts in this field are saying without that kind of guarantee in law, how can we, as Australians, be sure you actually make those commitments and get to Net Zero by 2050? 

Tim Wilson: Well, that's why we have the plan Avani, because it actually outlines the money, the investment that we're going to deliver to make sure that we can lead this transition and we go back to the point. The overwhelming majority of the 193 countries that have actually made commitments to Net Zero by 2050, I think there's only about five that have legislated it because the focus is on how we can use technology and of course, use public money to invest in building that future because it's the outcome that matters, not the intent and too much. 

Avani Dias: Obviously, it's the outcome that matters. But how can we be sure that it will actually happen? What what is actually saying here? Yeah, we will actually make this commitment and get there by 2050. 

Tim Wilson: Well, that's what the 130 page plan that we released today actually goes through step by step in terms of the technologies which can be, utilised to drive down emissions reduction and build jobs and growth for future generations. Because every country on Earth needs to harness the power of these technologies so they can be part of the solution. As you know and I know we can't cut emissions in isolation. We need other countries to do so because it's competitive because it helps improve their living standards. And of course, it makes sure that we take care of our environment as well. 

Avani Dias: Have you decided to not legislate it because you're worried members of the Nationals who you're in government with are not going to vote with you and will cross the floor? 

Tim Wilson: No, as I said before, the reason that we don't want that pathways because it actually empowers people to make decisions outside of the Parliament. I'm a Democrat, I'm proudly a Democrat, and I think that these decisions should be taken by the Parliament of Australia based on informed decisions. And of course, in what's going to drive the transformation, which is going to build the jobs of the future and of course, cut our greenhouse gas emissions. 

Avani Dias: Tim Wilson, the Prime Minister, is going to Glasgow in a couple of days. Are you worried about how Australia will be behind a lot of other countries, a lot of our biggest allies when it comes to your climate change plan? 

Tim Wilson: Not at all. I mean, the United States had exactly the same emissions reduction target as we had until very recently. They've cut their emissions by 10 per cent. We've cut out by 20 per cent. They have judging their commitment based on their intent, not outcomes. We're focused on outcomes and we have a very proud legacy. So many countries, New Zealand has barely touched their emissions despite having all the best intent. We're focused on what the outcome is. It's going to be delivered. And what you'll find when people go to Glasgow is how many foreign governments are looking not just at our comprehensive plan, but in addition to that how we're utilising technology as a solution because a lot of poorer countries need competitive technology to cut their emissions and be part of this solution to. 

Avani Dias: Tim Wilson, we do need to move on. I really appreciate you chatting to us on Hack. 

Tim Wilson: Thank you so much. 

Avani Dias: That was Tim Wilson, who is the Federal Assistant Energy Minister.