Patricia Karvelas: Tim Wilson is the Assistant Minister to the Energy and Emissions Reduction Minister and is our guest welcome.

Tim Wilson: Hey PK.

Patricia Karvelas: What measures will be put in place to take Australia from its old Net Zero target to its new one?

Tim Wilson: Well, there are many measures that are in this plan. It's whether, it's a focus on making sure that we get investment in areas like hydrogen, and it's critical role it's going to play as part of a transport fuels strategy. Whether it's development in terms of building materials, which can both act as a form of stored carbon, but also reduce the greenhouse gas emissions footprint and of course, energy efficiency. And this is this is the critical thing about this plan. It's a comprehensive economy wide plan, that goes through every different sector, what the Government is seeking to do to achieve the target of Net Zero by 2050. And that comprehensive economy wide approach far transcends anything we've seen from any other political party or Government, I might add. On this important issue of reducing Australia's greenhouse gas emissions.

Patricia Karvelas: I don't know about exceeding it. How will you reduce emissions, given most of the technologies in the roadmap are not even developed yet? So you're hoping it happens, but actually the breakthroughs haven't even happened yet.

Tim Wilson: Well, we know that over a 30 year timeframe, there's going to be technological innovations which are going to drive down emissions. So that we can improve Australian standards of living, continue economic growth while cutting emissions. The alternative, of course, is a tax based agenda which is being put forward by our political opponents in the past.

Patricia Karvelas: But with respect, that's a hope. But you can't demonstrate to us here on this show the evidence for how that will happen. That's based on we reckon the vibe is something will sort itself out.

Tim Wilson: Well sorry, politely, Patricia, that's false. What we actually have is very clear projections working with the International Energy Agency, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change around the maturation of technology where we expect to see it going. We know that blue hydrogen, which is the utilisation of gas, is going to be achieved over the next decade. We're going to become viable and competitive in green hydrogen, up to 2035 is but one of many examples. And that's what we're what we've actually developed in our comprehensive plan, is actually benchmarked against what international agencies are saying is achievable and we're working with them to achieve that.

Patricia Karvelas: But almost a third of the abatement task in your plan is actually through these unspecified technology breakthroughs. That's a big chunk of your plan relying on something we know nothing about.

Tim Wilson: Well, we all know in the lead up to 2050 that there's going to be really exciting new technologies that come along and become competitive. The world is relying on these technologies. It's not just our country.

Patricia Karvelas: You're not doing any of the heavy lifting till the end when you hope that this like we have this utopia that happens really quickly.

Tim Wilson: Well, I'm sorry, that's not right. What we know is that if you went and bought an electric vehicle only a few years ago, you would have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for it. Today, they're under $100,000, increasingly drifting towards $50,000. And that's just one technology. We know that where hydrogen is today in comparison to where it was 20 years ago, far transcends. That's why the lower cost of solar has led to one in four Australian households now having solar PV cells on their rooftops. So we're working with the technology, because the alternative is to impose heavy taxes on Australian households. Which actually don't drive technological advancement and innovation.

Patricia Karvelas: If we are projected to beat our existing 2030 targets of 26 to 28 per cent, why won't we legislate the new 30 to 35 per cent estimate? Why not make it a formal commitment?

Tim Wilson: Well, what we've got in today's projections, again, I'm very happy we're having this conversation because it's a clear sign that our emissions targets are not being just met but beaten. And of course, it's a sign that emissions are coming down. They're now down 20 per cent by 2005 levels. And as somebody pointed out to me today, it's basically taken a period to get to this point, but now we're going down and we're going down to a rapid rate. And so we took the position to the last election. Of course, there'll be further discussion about updated projections in the lead up to the next election. But we want to do this from a position of integrity and taking Australians with us so they can have confidence that our comprehensive economy wide plan is something that they can rely upon.

Patricia Karvelas: Ok, but why not just intrench it? Rather, why stick to the 2015 the targets you set years ago? I don't get it.

Tim Wilson: Well, firstly, it's good that we've actually got targets unlike the Labor Party, for 2030 and we're going to honour our trust with the Australian people. And of course, as we get updated projections, we'll look at these issues and what we're able to achieve. But the fact that by 2030, we're now projecting we're going to hit targets of up to thirty five per cent when we promised twenty eight, twenty six to twenty eight per cent says very clearly we're meeting, we're beating our targets. And the plan we're taking is working and that's what we should be excited about.

Patricia Karvelas: You haven't released. The modelling today. Why?

Tim Wilson: Well, the modelling will come out, the Prime Minister has made it clear there's going to be many future announcements, but today the focus is on the plan. I mean, you've got about a hundred and thirty pages. Comprehensively looking at the economy wide solution to getting Australia to Net Zero. Working with technology, but not utilising taxes, snd frankly, it's one that can be used for businesses to invest, create the jobs that Australian's need

Patricia Karvelas: But with respect. How can you say that that you haven't actually given us any of the evidence, the modelling that underpins your plan and we're going to hear about it later. Today is the day you've told us, as you say about the plan you've held up, don't we need to see what underpins its assumptions?

Tim Wilson: Well, well, as I've outlined already, the Prime Minister is actually going to release that modelling in time. But if you actually go through...

Patricia Karvelas: I mean, it does matter, does matter that we have the evidence to make an assessment about your policy.

Tim Wilson: Well, the Prime Minister's outline that in the lead up to the next budget, the release of not just the modelling but further strategies are going to be released. But if you actually go through the comprehensive plan, it goes through different technologies. Their viability, of course, the funding that's critical as part of rolling those technologies out, to make sure that we can actually achieve our target. And so and of course, the opportunities that are presented for Australia and that's, I think, where we have to shift the conversation to with too much of the conversation around climate change policy has been negative. Rather than saying where Australia can seize this moment and actually part of not just a local solution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and creating jobs. But how we can be part of the global solution to help other countries do the same and frankly make a buck out of it.

Patricia Karvelas: Okay, Energy and Emissions Reduction Minister Angus Taylor says the national plan will create sixty two thousand jobs in mining and heavy industry. Will the Government release the modelling? You know, that's a that's a number that you've quantified. How are we to believe it? Can you show us the evidence?

Tim Wilson: Well, well, firstly, we now already I have already outline that the modelling is going to be released. But if you go and look at the Government's critical minerals strategy, one of the huge opportunities out of reducing our greenhouse gas emissions is actually extracting non-traditional minerals. Critical minerals like lithium, like nickel, like the role of cobalt, which are critical in new technologies, including renewable ones and, of course, battery technology. So we're going to see real opportunities for the implementation of the Government's comprehensive economy wide plan. And in fact, one of the biggest challenges the world is going to face is access to these critical minerals into the future and making sure that we're able to utilise them. And of course, Australia is the home of so many of these critical minerals. In fact, in many cases where the second or third largest reserves and often the largest producer and refiner.

Patricia Karvelas: Tim Wilson, don't we deserve to see what deal was done with the Nationals?

Tim Wilson: Well, the Prime Minister has already outlined the details of working with the National Party. We have the Productivity Commission reviewing this plan every five years to ensure that there's equity and address the challenges faced by rural and regional communities. And that's fundamentally a good thing when you think about the the challenge of addressing climate change.

Patricia Karvelas: That's not all they got, we know, for instance, they got the the elevation of Keith Pitt. Do you think that's reasonable that you should get an extra cabinet minister and a cabinet minister now who openly said he didn't really support Net Zero emissions by 2050? Does that sound reasonable to you?

Tim Wilson: Well, what I what I want is a conversation that includes all voices in the Australian community. I think it's been frankly a bit dispiriting to say how many people want to exclude the voices of rural and regional communities or disparage them when they raise legitimate concerns. And I don't care whether it happens at the kitchen table, at the boardroom or the Cabinet Room. All Australians have a right to a voice in this conversation. Part of how we're going to achieve not just Net Zero by 2050, but how we're going to make sure that if there are bumps along the way, that everybody is supported because I actually want to build a better Australia and a cleaner Australia and a better economic environment for all Australians.

Patricia Karvelas: The private sector has been reluctant to invest in coal and there is no breakdown of where these jobs will come from. So how and where will these jobs be created? Are there specific sites in mind?

Tim Wilson: Well, as I said already there's huge opportunities in the space of critical minerals. But if you go through the comprehensive plan, we identify the potential of carbon sequestration and where that can be done in different parts of the country. We look at not just critical minerals, but of course, the expansion of renewable technology. There's recently at UNSW, a research centre which has found a way to increase the value of solar PV cells by 25 per cent. Not far from where I am in Canberra right now, there's companies investing in how to turn stored carbon into briquettes. So the opportunities are endless and it's not going to come from central planning of Government. We want to empower Australians and businesses to be part of this solution.

Patricia Karvelas: Given your plan also says that it's based on existing policies. Which don't clearly do the job of getting us to this very ambitious target, but this ambitious target by 2050.

Tim Wilson: Well I don't accept that premises,

Patricia Karvelas: Ok? Your actual document says that's based on existing policies...

Tim Wilson: No, I accept it, the existing policies. But you make the jump to then saying it won't meet it...

Patricia Karvelas: Your existing policies weren't net zero by 2050. You have changed your policy, but it's all on existing policies. What I'm asking is, do you really think electorates like yours who we know exercised about climate change and action are going to be sold on this plan? Do you really think this neutralises the issue?

Tim Wilson: Well, the best evidence of future success is past success. And while we have the Greens and the Labor Party trying to run down Australia's record proffering ideas about new taxes as a solution, we look at our approach, which is technology based. And of course, we know you've been asking me about in this interview. I seen emissions reduction go down by 20 per cent from 2005 levels. We're now talking about what's going to be done with our 2030 target because we're going to meet it, we're going to beat it, and people are now saying, Well, why can't we actually increase the trajectory? And I want to keep this going because we're steamrolling ahead based on a technology driven approach, not a taxation approach that is preferred by Labor and the Greens.

Patricia Karvelas: George Christensen, who's a National, has posted a video to his Facebook that features Matt Canavan in the role of The Terminator, where he shoots people as a way of dealing with net zero. Michael McCormack described it as beyond the pale. What do you think?

Tim Wilson: I think Michael McCormack is right. I concede that I haven't seen the video, but I don't think violence or even the representation of violence is ever an appropriate mechanism for political debate.

Patricia Karvelas: I want to move to something happening in your home state of Victoria, the Premier's promised pandemic legislation. Under the new laws, the Premier would be able to declare lockdowns for three months at a time with no limit on the duration of a declaration. What do you think?

Tim Wilson: Well, I'm quite concerned, frankly, about these laws as a local member and as a Victorian. I've had a lot of constituents raise their concerns with me, but ultimately it's a matter for the state opposition. I'd recommend that the Parliament exercise caution the State Parliament exercise caution. Because what we want is to build public confidence around these public health measures. We don't want a situation where people don't either feel like they've had a say or capacity to have a say, and that empowers individuals to make decisions about people's lives without proper parliamentary accountability.

Patricia Karvelas: Crown Resorts can keep its Melbourne casino licence, despite the Royal Commission finding that its conduct was disgraceful. Are you comfortable with this? I mean, this is a very damning report, and yet they keep, they're able to continue.

Tim Wilson: Well, this is obviously a matter for the State Government and again, not being in state parliament. I haven't reviewed every part of the report, but I think everyone needs to take it with caution because if there's misconduct, people should be held accountable and it should be properly followed through.

Patricia Karvelas: Thank you so much for your time.

Tim Wilson: Thanks, PK.

Patricia Karvelas: Tim Wilson, the Assistant Minister to the Energy and Emissions Reduction Targets Minister.