PATRICIA KARVELAS: Tim Wilson is the Assistant Minister to the Minister for Industry, Energy and Emissions Reduction, and he joins me now. Firstly, congratulations on your promotion. 

TIM WILSON: Thank you Patricia.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: We lost you from your regular panel spots. But we've got you now in a one-on-one interrogation, which is my favourite form.

TIM WILSON: I'm sure Anne Aly is devastated. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I'm sure she's she's very upset. Yeah. Bridget McKenzie declared it will be ugly if the Prime Minister adopts a net zero emissions target without the Nationals' approval. What's your response to this? 

TIM WILSON: Well, the position of the government has always been to engage all of its members, representing all of the different communities of the Commonwealth to make sure they're part of the conversation. And that's the base which I approach discussion around net zero and climate change policy, generally. We take positions, we take them to an election, they get endorsed by the Australian people from the full spectrum, and I want to include those voices in this conversation as well. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK. But what happens if things get ugly? What does that look like? 

TIM WILSON: I think that's a hypothetical, and I think it's not going to be where we're going to end up. I think where we're going to end up is with a conversation between reasoned minds in the Parliament about how to take Australia forward. That's going to include the National Party, as well as members of the Liberal Party. And of course, other members will be able to have their say in the Parliament as well. And that's the basis which we approach this conversation. It’s the reason why the National Party members are in the room having this conversation, because their views are respected. We understand they represent some regional communities as country Liberals do as well. And of course, the voices of urban and suburban Australia is included, too. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But if the Prime Minister can't secure a sort of a position from the Nationals, which is to support net zero emissions by 2050 and goes to Glasgow with a net zero emissions by 2050 target, Bridget McKenzie says it'll be ugly. That means that would split the Coalition, right? Should he do it? 

TIM WILSON: Well, I think you're jumping ahead of the gun.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Not really. She said it, in the Senate. 

TIM WILSON: There was a sorry, you're throwing out a whole series of hypotheticals. I mean, we just need to look at the position the leader of the National Party took today. He set up a working group with members to mull over different policy proposals to be put to the Prime Minister as part of the conversation towards adopting a target. I see that as an entirely constructive part of the conversation and one in which its focus and goodwill with good spirits and wanting to achieve a good outcome for regional Australia, a good outcome for Australia as a whole. And of course, that we're taking a responsible position as part of the global community. We're reducing our greenhouse gas, our emissions already down by 20 per cent and a commitment to continue on that trajectory. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK, but it's like five minutes to midnight. There's this looming meeting. Why has your government left it so late to be wrangling the Nationals at this point? 

TIM WILSON: Well, these issues continue to be discussed throughout this entire term of Parliament, Patricia. And previous Parliaments. I mean, we have had this thing called coronavirus, which is somewhat dominated the conversation across the country over the past 18 months, two years and climate change policy continues to evolve, reflecting changing circumstances. We know technology has improved. We know that Australia is doing better than its projected targets. We're meeting and beating them comfortably, and it's an opportunity for us to have greater ambition and have a conversation about where Australia, not just environmentally but economically, is going to be positioned in the world. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Is it feasible that if the Nationals say no, that the government would go and still push for a net zero emissions, you know, promise at an international forum? Would that would that still happen? 

TIM WILSON: I'm not even going to canvass that as a possibility because while we... 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Even though it’s a live option, well, right now, if you listen to the National's leadership. 

TIM WILSON: No, I mean, there are plenty of people who want to inflame our conversation. What I'm focused on is actually how we bring people together to achieve the best interests of Australians, including regional Australians. And that's where my energy is going to go, rather than trying to proffer thoughts on scenarios put forward to us, because that does nothing to actually achieve the objective. I'm an outcomes kind of guy, just like this government is in reducing our emissions. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If Cabinet signs off on it, what does it mean in terms of the Nationals ministerial positions? Should people resign if they can't go out and argue for net zero emissions by 2050? 

TIM WILSON: Well, again, you're throwing out these scenarios, the members of the Cabinet are actually part of this conversation, includes members of the National Party who are coming together, in good faith, to deliver the best outcome for the Australian people. And that's again, where my energy is going to be focused and that's where their energy, I have no doubt is focused, because that's the outcome that we're all seeking to achieve. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Should the government release the roadmap and plan? 

TIM WILSON: Well, of course, there was a discussion about the plan in the Liberal Party room, there was one in the National Party room and when an announcements made about any commitment down this path, it will be with a plan, because we've said every step of the way. A target without a plan lacks credibility and a plan without a target lacks credibility. And so the Prime Minister has been very clear about the need to develop a plan, for it to be backed up if we are to adopt a new target. And of course, that stands in comparison to the Labor Party, which is constantly taking targets with no plans, no idea how to get there, but they're quite happy to put the economic future of Australia on the casino wheel, because it helps them with their politics. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You either get it or you don't. So if you do get this commitment, do the people who argued against it need to acknowledge they were wrong and resign? 

TIM WILSON: I think there's always been a discussion of people of goodwill on how we're going to strengthen Australia. They are going to be regional impacts that are going to be different in some parts of the country. The members that represent their communities in the spirit of the best interests of the nation, should voice those and be part of this conversation. The constant attempts to pit members against each other, rather than to focus on what we're trying to achieve together, is frankly false. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Have you spoken to the Nationals? Have you personally tried to convince any of them? 

TIM WILSON: I've spoken to many members of the National Party about this issue over, frankly, over a decade. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I mean, I mean in recent days, as you've been trying to get them over the line. 

TIM WILSON: As you know, Patricia, these discussions are at a Cabinet level. While I do appreciate the goodwill of congratulating me on my promotion, it wasn't to Cabinet. And so those conversations are happening. But I talk to members from across the aisle and of course, on in different parties about how we're going to achieve things together and so this is no different. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Some Nationals MPs have suggested a new coal mine in Queensland should be on the table to secure support. Others have indicated nuclear power should be reconsidered. Do you support either of those ideas? 

TIM WILSON: What I support is the, anyone who has an idea they want to put forward about how to strengthen communities and to achieve an outcome where parties of government come together to advance Australia's best interests. And so, of course, I don't. I'm not a closed-minded person by my nature. That's why I'm a Liberal and I'm quite happy to consider any option as part of the conversation. But these decisions and that will be made in Cabinet, and then once that decision is made, will be presented to the Australian people. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But on nuclear power, do you support it as a source? 

TIM WILSON: Well, of course we have a prohibition currently on nuclear power, and the Prime Minister has made it clear that unless there's a bipartisan conversation, an agreement to remove the prohibition, that it isn't on the table, but the long-term road map around technology talks about the potential of future technologies, and I really look forward to being part of that conversation. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But how about this idea of a new coal mine in Queensland? What's your thinking around that? 

TIM WILSON: Well, I haven't seen any of the proposal, Patricia. So it would be silly to comment. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Wouldn't it be at odds with us trying to get to net zero emissions by 2050? 

TIM WILSON: Well, there are any, there are a lot of plans. We're talking about net zero. And when we're talking about net zero, there are offsets associated with any plan. And of course, I would have thought that any plan presented that includes an increase in emissions would have to demonstrate offsets in order to achieve it. And I haven't seen the plan. Therefore, I can't endorse it at this time, 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Which is a tricky thing to do. That's the actual point. Right? If you've got to create the offsets every time. If you're putting more, creating more emissions, you're making it a lot harder for yourself, aren't you? 

TIM WILSON: Well, that's that's a fundamental point. That's why you can't just, if ideas are thrown out at you, you can't just say yes or no. What you actually have do is see the plan, and this is the point the Prime Minister has consistently made. You can have a target, but it needs to be backed up with a plan. And that's the approach he's taken in leading this conversation through the Cabinet, in bringing the National Party as part of the conversation. And so we can advance the economic interests of Australians and build, frankly, the foundations of the future of the Australian economy. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: 2050 is one thing, but the interim targets really will matter. Why is Australia going to this international meeting without any more ambitious 2030 targets? 

TIM WILSON: What we're taking to this conference is the targets that we actually got endorsed by the Australian people at the last election. At the last election, the Labor Party put up a 45 per cent target by 2030. We put up a 26 by 28 per cent target. Now, we won that election and so we're seeking endorsement. We got endorsement from the Australian people and any upward projection on that target would need to be endorsed by the Australian people as well. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok, so you believe in taking it to the election. Will you be arguing internally that there should be a more ambitious target for the interim, that should be taken to the next election? 

TIM WILSON: Well, what I'm really excited about Patricia, is that emissions have been going down and in fact, all the public projections of where emissions are going out there actually show that we're going to meet our targets. And so there's actually reason to be excited, and it'll be against that backdrop of hard data and the Australian people that I'll be making future comments about any change to any targets. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Obviously you've read the, I'm assuming the report, you know that that clearly is quite alarming in relation to catastrophic climate change. Do you accept that there's going to have to be a ramping up of those ambitions? That you might say you need to take to the people, I get that as a concept, but a ramping up to actually achieve what we need to achieve.

TIM WILSON: We're all very concerned about the environmental impacts of climate change. But as we also know, Australia can't solve this problem in isolation. We're little over 1 per cent of global emissions. So what we need other countries to do, is follow our lead. Which is actually to set targets, then meet them and hopefully do as we are doing, which is beating them. We're already down 20.8 per cent on our 2005 levels. All public projections suggest that we're going to exceed those targets we set for 2030, and that's the way you make sure you address the challenges of climate change, by actually cutting emissions, as Australia does. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Tim Wilson, we're out of time. Thanks for coming on. 

TIM WILSON: Thanks, Patricia. 

ENDS