Chris Kenny: Let's go to Canberra now and catch up with Tim Wilson, the Assistant Minister for Industry, Energy and Emissions Reductions. Good to talk to you again, Tim, and congratulations on your elevation to the ministry.

Tim Wilson: Thank you, I mean, I had elevation to the ministry and the Dees winning the Grand Final in the same week, so it was a good week.

Chris Kenny: Yeah, 2021 has played out pretty well for you so far. Now, just as a former Human Rights Commissioner, I would...

Tim Wilson: There was that coronavirus thing, which wasn't so good.

Chris Kenny: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you'd take the Premiership and the ministry, I think. But tell me about as a former Human Rights Commissioner, your thoughts on Quinton de Kock being vilified like this because he chose not to take a knee.

Tim Wilson: You know I'm going to leave it, obviously to him to decide whether he should have done and of course, you know, it's up to the discussion with the sporting code, but I frankly, I find it quite distressing that the ABC is going after people because they're not following a kind of corporate script. I mean, I'm somebody who believes that everybody has a right to express themselves. They shouldn't be intimidated in doing so. In fact, you know, freedom of speech only needs to be defended when people challenge the lines of social acceptability. And and I just kind of find it really quite distressing. What else are we all going to be forced to do so if we go down this path? And so I think the ABC frankly needs to pull their heads in. They need to respect the fact that there's obviously a diversity of views or at least before condemning somebody, try and get an answer out of them about why it is and least given the opportunity to explain themselves.

Chris Kenny: I mean, imagine if we flipped it around. Imagine if people were condemning someone for taking a knee. It would be unthinkable. Yet somehow they think they can condemn someone, as you say, based on no facts or no explanation. Condemn him for not joining in.

Tim Wilson: Well, you can show the counterfactual, and you're right, and either way, it to me just doesn't pass the test of how you have an open, pluralist society. I want a society that's based on respect. And I have no truck with racism or any other type of prejudice in our society. But I also don't believe in vilifying people if they don't conform to an acceptable terms or standard that that is being imposed by them. I think that people have to be able to stand up and speak out, and sometimes that's difficult because it often means challenging the status quo. And clearly that's what this individual has done and what's going on in T20 cricket in South Africa. It's not a topic of which I'm a particular expert in.

Chris Kenny: Indeed, let's get back to your portfolio responsibilities then. And part of that being energy and emissions reduction, what do you think is actually going to happen in Glasgow? Is anything going to come out of it that will have any impact on us? Or is it essentially that that Net Zero 2050 commitment that the government's already made?

Tim Wilson: Well, obviously what the Australian Government is saying to us, a very clear commitment of Net Zero by 2050 and as part of the comprehensive plan we released this week, we also showed that we could update our projections for 2030. We're able to get to 35% emissions reduction by 2030, so we'll be tabling that there. But you know, Australia's one per cent of the world's emissions, that's not an argument not to do something, but it means we rely on other countries to come to the table and contribute. And I was at the Copenhagen summit. You might remember Chris back in 2009, and people built it up as being this epic moment. And unfortunately, it went very much in the other direction and became a spectacular failure. And the conversation lead up to Glasgow, I see from domestic media, is how it's going to be, you know, this epic moment. And you know, of course, Australia's role in it would rather be sidelined or praised, depending on what people's different perspectives are. It's actually a conference mostly about the rulebook of how we account for greenhouse gas emissions and the like, but there still isn't an agreement on that, and we're going to have to fight hard just to get a good outcome for not just Australia, for the world.

Chris Kenny: Will there be pressure on Australia to increase the 2030 targets? And do you expect that this is going to be a big contest between the Government and the opposition in the lead up to the next election? Because presumably Labor has to stick with a 45% target for 2030?

Tim Wilson: Well, I mean, there will be pressure from activists and and other, you know, the Australian Labor Party has been very clear that they don't think that our upward projection of 35 % of 2005 levels is satisfactory for 2030, but they haven't shown what their own is. I mean, yesterday they were demanding we legislate our target for 2050. My return proposal is, well, let's see you legislate, you want to try and legislate your 2030 target. They can't. They haven't got one. And yes, I suspect they're going to end up with their 45% target because they have no real answers to the fundamental challenge because they like the politics and I like the intent and they like the sop to their voters and their branch members and of course, to stop votes going off to the Greens. But when it comes to the substance in delivery, they just have no track record. I mean, when it comes down to it, the OECD average of emissions reduction is 7% since 2005. Australia has smashed that by a factor of three already at 21%. We're not measuring our activity on intent. It's based on outcomes.

Chris Kenny: Thanks for joining us, Tim.

Tim Wilson: Thanks for having me.

Chris Kenny: Tim Wilson there, who's the Assistant Minister for Industry, Energy and Emissions Reductions.