TOM CONNELL: Thanks for your time. So meet and beat, as you’ve said, is happening in 2020. What will this mean for 2030? And, crucially, being able to meet our targets without the so-called Kyoto carryover?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Tom, as you can see from those numbers, we’ve absolutely smashed our 2020 targets. 459 million tonnes - that’s almost a year’s worth of emissions. Very few countries in the world can boast that kind of outcome. Countries like Canada and New Zealand haven’t met their targets. We have by a long, long way. 25 per cent below the forecast when we came into government this year, and there were many pundits who said there was no way we were going to reach those targets. We’ve smashed them. Now, as we look forward to 2030, which was your question, we’re 16.6 per cent down on our 2005 baseline. That’s well-progressed towards our 26 per cent target.

TOM CONNELL: To get to 26, 28, yeah.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Much better again than any of the pundits thought and we’ve done this without a carbon tax. This is the crucial point. I mean, their forecasts when we came into government were with a carbon tax. We’ve got rid of the carbon tax and we’re smashing our targets. We’re doing it through technology, not taxation. That’s the focus. And as we look forward to 2030, of course, we’ll put out our updated annual forecast which we do before Christmas each year in the coming weeks. But you can see from these numbers, we’re doing extremely well, independent of the pandemic. As I say, this is not – you know, we don’t need to become central planners and take over the economy, we just do it in the way good Liberal National governments do which is deploying technology, the enterprise of Australians to get these emissions down. They’ve done it in the past. As I say, people will always be sceptical about the future but we’re very optimistic about our progress.

TOM CONNELL: What about that 2030 though? The Kyoto carryover? At this stage, we are still allowing ourselves, if you like, to use that. What point will you be able to say: ‘Look, everything’s so well on track, we will commit to not using that carryover’? Because that would be a significant thing to take to an international fora, for example.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yeah, look, we’ll only use it if we need to. But a little bit of history here, Tom. Labor, when they negotiated the 2012 Kyoto agreement insisted, fought that carryover should be available if needed. We’ve always stuck with that principle but we’ve also always sought to achieve it without carryover. We achieved the Kyoto 2020 targets without carryover by a long, long way.

TOM CONNELL: Yeah.

ANGUS TAYLOR: And we will seek to do the same for 2030. But we also believe, strongly, that if Australia overachieves, as we always have, unlike so many other countries in the world, Tom, including many countries in Europe, we should be able to use it if we need to. But our progress is extremely strong.

TOM CONNELL: You reserve the right to use it right up until, I mean, who knows? I’m not going to be too bold and say you’ll never be minister in 2029 - that’s a long way away - but you’re saying we’ll keep that until the year of 2030. There’s no reason to jettison it beforehand?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Look, you saw how we dealt with it in the Kyoto era. It became very apparent a number of years back we weren’t going to need it-

TOM CONNELL: But you reserve the right to-

ANGUS TAYLOR: But it’s more than apparent now that we haven’t needed it.

TOM CONNELL: Okay.

ANGUS TAYLOR: And that’s our approach. The other point I’d make here is that we have a strong 2030 target and those opposite us, the Labor Party don’t, Tom. And this is a crucial point. We’re clear about our targets. We know we’re going to get there through technology not taxation. We have the track record. We’ve achieved it without a carbon tax and we’re confident we can do the same going forward.

TOM CONNELL: 2050 net zero, the line we’re getting from Scott Morrison now is we’ll get there as soon as possible. What does that mean? Does that depend on costs, for example? Because we can get there. It’s about whether you have a desire to or what it might cost. Is that the big thing in mind?

ANGUS TAYLOR: The important point here is that any target we set or go after or any outcome we go after must be done through technology, not taxation. That's the crucial point. We don't want to raise the price of electricity. We want to make sure we have affordable, reliable energy in this country. We don't want to destroy manufacturing jobs. And so the way to achieve these outcomes is to deploy technologies that can bring the cost of lower emitting energy sources down without raising the cost of traditional fuel sources. This has been central to our approach since we got into government in 2013. It has worked. As I say, against all the pundits, it has worked and it will work in the future as it has worked in the past. And the reason for this, Tom, it's hugely important. You know, humans solve hard problems by enterprise and deployment of technologies. It is how we've always done it, and that's how we will do this and that means we won't impose taxes.

TOM CONNELL: I understand that, because you’re saying do that, but in terms of cost, I mean, cost can also come from government. You’ve got a technology roadmap, you can decide how much money to put into subsidies, to put into underwriting. So again, what does as soon as possible, actually mean? What’s the limitation on you in terms of the possibility there?

ANGUS TAYLOR: The targets that really matter here, that will drive when as soon as possible is are the technology targets that we've outlined in our Technology Investment Roadmap. So getting the cost of production of hydrogen to below $2 per kilogram. Getting the cost of measuring soil carbon down to below $3 per hectare per year. Getting the cost of production of low emission steel down to under $900 a tonne. They're the targets we've set, and there's others, but they're the targets we've set. We know that those targets will allow us, will enable us to get our emissions down at a rapid pace.

TOM CONNELL: Right.

ANGUS TAYLOR: But more importantly, and this is absolutely crucial in this debate, they will enable getting emissions down across the world.

TOM CONNELL: Yeah.

ANGUS TAYLOR: So that's why these are the targets that really count and it's why we keep energy prices down.

TOM CONNELL: So what you're saying is, here's the money, here's what we're putting in, we've got the technology roadmap - the pace at which we get there depends on how good and how quickly the technology evolves. Is that what you’re saying?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Correct.

TOM CONNELL: You've got a finite expenditure you’ll map out and you've mapped out so far. Here’s how much we spend - the pace at which we get there depends on the technology.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yes.

TOM CONNELL: And that's what it relies on. So does that get to a point, though, where you consider we could spend more money on the technology and get there faster?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, certainly we're spending, we’re redeploying, reallocating and directing our R&D investment, whether it's in ARENA, the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, CSIRO, even the way we're working with the universities in a way that's focused on those targets. So there's a lot of money there that we’re-

TOM CONNELL: Alright. So that’s the pot of money for now.

ANGUS TAYLOR: And that's very significant. I mean, if you take our $18 billion that we direct through some of those organisations, not all of them, and then what we expect the private sector to commit, which is three times what we're committing, because that's our experience, these are very significant dollars going into R&D. Now, the key for us is to collaborate with countries around the world, whether it's the UK, the United States, Japan, enormous interest in Japan in hydrogen for instance, work with them to get these costs of these emerging technologies down. That allows us to build these industries without destroying jobs and protect our existing industry.

TOM CONNELL: Alright. Just a couple of quick things before we go. Joe Biden is putting the US back in the Paris climate deal.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yep.

TOM CONNELL: He says: “Climate change is the number one issue facing humanity.” Do you agree?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, I certainly think it's an important issue. And we welcome-

TOM CONNELL: Well, he says it’s the number one.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Look, I'm not going to get into sort of what's first and what's second. There's lots of issues. We're facing this pandemic right now-

TOM CONNELL: It’s not clear whether one, in your mind.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Right now, the pandemic is top of mind for Australians. There's no question about that, Tom.

TOM CONNELL: Is it number two then?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Look, getting into this kind of ordering makes no sense.

TOM CONNELL: I mean, you’re the Minister, it’s pretty important, this is the leader of the free world saying this-

ANGUS TAYLOR: But look, what I will say, let me finish - you keep interrupting me, Tom - let me finish. My point is we welcome the United States to the Paris Agreement. We've been in the Paris Agreement from the start. The United States, of course, hasn't in recent years and we welcome them to it. Of course, there's enormous areas for us to work together. If you look at carbon capture and storage, Joe Biden has said they're going to double down on it. And there’s 58 projects around the world, carbon capture and storage, almost half of them in the US. The biggest project is here in Australia. We’ll work very closely with the United States on this. It has to be a priority, there's no question about that, and we've made it a priority.

TOM CONNELL: Alright. And just finally, electric cars, we've got two states now talking about going with the tax. Now, you hate the taxation approach. You don't like new taxes. What do you make of this?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, we've got no plan to impose a tax. But look-

TOM CONNELL: But what do you make of the states?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well they’re choices that have been made by the states. If you look at our electric vehicle strategy, it's about enabling choice. It's about making sure consumers have that choice. We've got just over $70 million for our Future Fuels Fund which is about getting the infrastructure in place that can support people making their choices, not forcing them to buy an electric vehicle. If they want to buy an electric vehicle, great. Go for it.

TOM CONNELL: Alright.

ANGUS TAYLOR: And we're making sure the infrastructure and support is in place so they can make those choices.

TOM CONNELL: You're pressed for time. I appreciate you coming on this morning. Talk to you soon.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks, Tom. 

Media contact:

Minister Taylor's office: 02 6277 7120