ROWAN DEAN: Well, I mentioned at the top of the show the seismic shifting of the twin tectonic political plates of climate and energy. Angus Taylor is the Federal Energy Minister, who is determined to give Australia cheap and reliable energy, along with a reduction in carbon emissions. Yet, his plans for a new gas fired power plant - gas is of course a fossil fuel - appears to have been thrown into turmoil by the climate zealots within the New South Wales Liberal Government, Matt Kean. Joel Fitzgibbon is the Labor man who is directly responsible for today's seismic shift. Just before Christmas, Mr Fitzgibbon demanded the sacking of ultra-Green, climate cultus, Mark Butler, from Labor's energy and environment portfolio - today it happened. Joining me now are Federal Energy Minister, Angus Taylor, and Labor maverick, Joel Fitzgibbon. Great to see you both. How are you? 

ANGUS TAYLOR:    Thanks for having me, Rowan. 

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    Great to be with you, Rowan. G’day, Angus.

ROWAN DEAN:        Excellent. 

ANGUS TAYLOR:    G’day, Joel.

ROWAN DEAN:        Joel, I'll start with you. You demanded just before Christmas that climate zealot Mark Butler get punted. Today, Butler got punted. You're a miracle worker, Joel. ‘Props,’ as the kids say. Is it within your magical powers to save the Labor Party from annihilation at the next election?

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    Well, I'm doing my best, Rowan, that's for sure. They're certainly not the words I used last November but I do think moving Mark Butler on is a very good start. But you know, changing the jockey is one thing - changing the policy direction and the narrative, which is important, is another. So, it's a good first step, and we'll see where it takes us. But I've said many times today, we need to do a number of things. We need to reconnect to the zero net emissions objective of 2050 - I know you don't like it, but it's almost a universal consensus these days. And it's a long way away, we've got plenty of time to get by embracing new technology. We have to dispense with this idea of setting medium-term targets from opposition. That's the role of government on behalf of the whole country, and once a government sets a target for a period then that should remain the target for the commitment period, regardless of any change in government. And we have to dispense with this idea of putting a price on carbon. Whether you call it carbon constraint, a carbon tax, whatever you might want to call it. It's a 20th century approach to a 21st century challenge and we need to say we're not for that anymore, but rather we will get there embracing new innovation and technology. 

ROWAN DEAN:        Angus, you must be quaking in your boots now that you'll be up against Chris Bowen, the man who gave us grocery watch and stealing Mrs [inaudible] franking credits. But on a serious note, if Labor is becoming more pragmatic on climate and energy, does this make your life easier or harder? 

ANGUS TAYLOR:    Well, it's obviously a good thing, Rowan and I congratulate Joel on his success. I think he was the real winner in this reshuffle. He's the puppet master from what I can tell in what happened there. And it's a desperate attempt by Albanese to shore up his faltering leadership. The backflip over Butler is extraordinary because he was saying just back in November that Butler was better than sliced bread. But you know, the key issue here is what will Labor's policies be after the reshuffle. Joel laid out a plan, which is all about technology not taxes. Not imposing an electricity tax on Australians to bring down the cost of energy, as is happening. We've seen an almost 10 per cent reduction in the last 12 months we've learnt today or yesterday, the last couple of days. So that's good news but we need to go further and we need Labor working with us. And as Joel knows, in the conversations we've had, we're happy to work with a Labor Party that has sensible policies, that wants to drive down the cost of energy, that wants to use technology not taxation to bring down emissions, and we're looking forward to the change and seeing whether that comes to fruition. 

ROWAN DEAN:        Joel, it strikes me that the climate crazies in the Liberal Party, like Matt Kean and Dave Sharma, are doing far more damage to the Coalition than even Mark Butler ever did? Isn't the gap wide open now for Bowen to simply copy the Coalition's policies, as Angus has just suggested, and thereby neutralise the entire debate?

ANGUS TAYLOR:    That's a question for me is it, Rowan?

ROWAN DEAN:        No, sorry. Joel? Sorry, we've lost Joel's sound there. How are you mate? 

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    Am I back? 

ROWAN DEAN:        Sorry, we lost your sound there, Joel. Yep. That's okay.

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    I'm back. I'm back now.

ROWAN DEAN:        Probably a power cut in the Hunter or something. [Laughter]

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    That's like one unit down at Liddell. 

ROWAN DEAN:        I was just asking whether, in your opinion, it's actually the crazies within the Liberal Party who are making Angus' life so hard rather than the failure of Mark Butler to do so?

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    Yeah, well they're giving him some grief, Rowan. But to his credit at the New South Wales level, Matt Kean did come down an underground coal mine with me. So I was pretty impressed that he was at least prepared to do that and learn a few things about the coal mining industry. But certainly it's time to depoliticise the climate debate, Rowan. Who wins out of this thing? Although, I think Angus would probably argue they've had a couple of wins out of it during the last two elections. But, the problem with the Labor Party is that in recent years it's become obsessed with climate change policy. You know, we used to be known as the party of the worker, and now we're the party of climate change. And rather than see climate change as a political opportunity - and it's hardly been that for us - we should see it as a policy challenge. We should be seeking to work with the Government so it's not a political bun fight, because let's be frank, we usually come off second best in those political bun fights. So, you know, if Angus and Scott Morrison are prepared to talk turkey and, you know, take the heat out of this debate, no one will be happier than me. And then we can get on with it, productively, meeting our obligations under the Paris Agreement signed by Malcolm Turnbull, and doing so in a way that's not harmful to the economy or to local jobs.

ROWAN DEAN:        Angus, you do have the hardest and trickiest portfolio in modern government. There's no question about that. Yet it strikes me that you are constantly being thwarted not by Labor, but by the climate obsessed ‘wets’ within the Liberal Party. True or false?

ANGUS TAYLOR:    No, look, I don't accept that, Rowan. We're getting on with it and the results are on the board. We've seen, as I said just a moment ago, reductions in electricity prices on average across Australia. Almost 10 per cent in the last 12 months. More than 50 per cent on wholesale prices which is the critical price for jobs, for the big manufacturing jobs. We're seeing new generation now being invested in. New firm generation that's there when you want it, when you flick on the switch, and that increase in reliability that we need. So we see all of this happen. We're seeing it happen in a sensible way. Now, it's true - there are differences of view across states, territories, and the Commonwealth. And our focus- 

ROWAN DEAN:        Well, just on that, on that, Angus, can I just ask you, is it true what Andrew Clennell reported here on SKY yesterday that you basically said to Matt Kean: ‘You're prepared to subsidise renewables, but you're not prepared to subsidise gas - that's insane’? Or words to that effect? Is that true or false?

ANGUS TAYLOR:    Look, Andrew Clennell says all sorts of things, and I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued by that one. I haven't heard that one. I haven't- 

ROWAN DEAN:        True or false? It's one word. It's one reality.

ANGUS TAYLOR:    I haven't heard that one before, and so I don't know where that came from. 

ROWAN DEAN:        Okay. [Laughs]

ANGUS TAYLOR:    Now look, let's be clear here. In New South Wales - which is the real issue we've got at the moment - we've got Liddell closing, we've asked the private sector to step up and build firm generation, dispatchable generation that can be gas or coal or whatever it's got to be, but it's got to be there when you flick the switch. And, if they don't, we will. And we've committed to do that. The New South Wales Government is supporting that policy and we're confident we can get it done in time. Now, the great virtue of gas in this particular case is it is fast. It can be done quickly. We can get approvals from state governments, which is hugely important in this, in a timely way. It's flexible, so it can be turned on and off as it's needed. And we need more flexible generation in our grid. And, it's affordable. We'll get a return to taxpayers. So, we're getting on with it. There's lots of people with lots of opinions in this space, but what matters is we get that supply in, we drive down prices, we drive up reliability, and, Rowan, the runs are on the score board and they will continue to come on the score board. We look forward to working with Labor on these things, with these changes, if they're willing to.

ROWAN DEAN:        Joel, I hate those left and right labels, but how much further does Labor need to shift not personalities, but policies in order to appeal to traditional blue collar Labor voters?

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    Well, quite a bit, Rowan. But, before I go there can I just remind Angus, Angus was going to keep Liddell open, remember? He was going to keep the door open. It was never realistic, and now Matt Canavan wants to build a coal fired generator. Now, no-one would be happier about that than me. Matt said I'm not a fighter. No, I won't offer false hope. You know, if it's highly unlikely the private sector is ever going to come forward with the cash, then don't promise it, don't raise false hope. But, the Labor Party has to do a lot. I mean, many of our traditional voters not only voted against us last time, they did so with enthusiasm. And to get those people back, you need to do more than change your language by about one or two degrees. You need to go to the coal mines, go to the gas projects, go to the manufacturing plants, go to the abattoirs and shout really loudly: ‘Look, we got it wrong. We lost our way. But, we respect what you do, we are proud of what you do, we need you to keep doing it and you have our support, absolutely.’ And until Anthony Albanese and others, and the other senior members of the shadow cabinet start getting around all those mine sites and the like, then we will continue to struggle no matter what we say from the bubble in Canberra.

ROWAN DEAN:        And Angus, Kristina Keneally insisted that the 2019 election was the climate change election until, of course, Labor lost. Feel free to tell me whether or not we'll be going to the polls later this year. Angus, here's my scoop. Come on, are we? 

ANGUS TAYLOR:    Well, the Prime Minister's been very clear on this. But, let me tell you, if it was the climate change election, it didn't go very well for them, did it? 

ROWAN DEAN:        Precisely. 

ANGUS TAYLOR:    Because with their 45 per cent emission reduction target that Bill Shorten couldn't explain, that Mark Butler was behind, it's time for a change in direction. And maybe we're going to see that now. That's good news. I congratulate Joel. We want to get on with the job of driving down prices, creating jobs in manufacturing, driving up reliability, and doing sensible things to bring down emissions without imposing costs on Australians.

ROWAN DEAN:        So, Joel, well I'll just throw - I'll go for my second scoop. I've got one from Angus there, kind of. Second scoop. Come on, when are you going to be Labor leader? And will you be Labor leader at the forthcoming election later this year, Joel Fitzgibbon? And give Labor some hope. Give working class Australia some hope, Joel. 

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    I will answer the question, Rowan. But just first of all, can I just remind Angus that my neighbour Pat Conroy said that climate change was a net winner for us at the last election. 

ANGUS TAYLOR:    He did. He did!

JOEL FITZGIBBON:    There you go. Believe who you choose to believe. Rowan, I have no ambition to lead the Labor Party. My ambition is for the Labor Party to win an election, just occasionally at least. We haven't proven very good at that. We've only formed a majority at the House of Representatives once in the last 27 years. I come up to my 25th anniversary in March, and I've served six years government. And it's not winning for winnings sake, its winning for the sake of the millions of Australians that, you know, hope for us to form a government from time-to-time. So, from the minute I wake up in the morning, to the time I close my eyes at night, I've only got one objective - to make the Labor Party more competitive, to win an election, and to secure the opportunity to progress a Labor policy program. 

ROWAN DEAN:        And Angus, just very quickly. What's your response to the Nationals saying, come on, build a coal fired power station?

ANGUS TAYLOR:    Well, the immediate problem, as I said, in the Hunter Valley which is what they're focussed on, is to build a gas generator because we can do it. You know, at the end of the day, Rowan, when you're in government you've got to do stuff that's achievable - and this is the point Joel made. And it's achievable, we can actually do that, so let's get on with it. And it's the right technology in that case, because it's fast to build, it's flexible, it's affordable, and, we can get on with it. So, my job as a Minister is to deliver those affordable prices. I know we need more dispatchable generation - 70 per cent of the grid right now is coal, that's not going away any time soon - but, gas has a particularly important role to play in the coming years because of the flexibility and speed that we can get from it.

ROWAN DEAN:        Angus Taylor, Federal Energy Minister. Joel Fitzgibbon, future Labor leader. [Laughs] Thank you both for coming on the show and I look forward to next time we might discuss nuclear - whoa, that'll be fun. Thank you both so much for coming on Inside the News tonight. Thanks, guys.

ENDS