JONATHAN GREEN: Would you like a cheaper power bill? I'm sure you would. Do you trust the Government and what it's announced today to deliver that for you? Let us know - 0418 226 576, send us a text. Will the Government lower your power price? Because it's decoupled that from its efforts to lower emissions and the Government is, as we hear today, pushing ahead with what's left of the National Energy Guarantee. Today, it outlined measures to establish a default energy price that retailers will be required to offer customers. The Government says it'll save households up to $832 a year. The PM, he took to social media.

[Excerpt]

SCOTT MORRISON: We're going to get the electricity companies in line. We're going to do it with new laws and new rules which means they can't rip you off simply by you being a loyal customer. If you stay with them, you shouldn't be penalised for that. We're going to stop the price gouging and have tough penalties for the big electricity companies if they try and do that. Thirdly, we're going to force them to put more fair dinkum reliable energy, power into the system. Renewables are great, but we're also needing the reliable power when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. That's what keeps the lights on. Lower electricity prices, meeting our emissions reductions targets, and ensuring the lights stay on.

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JONATHAN GREEN: PM Scott Morrison on social media today. Retailers, well, they're warning that the measures could act as a price cap and force smaller companies out of the market. Angus Taylor is Minister for Energy. Minister, welcome to Drive.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks for having me, Jonathan.

JONATHAN GREEN: Did you ever imagine that as a minister in a Liberal Government, as an advocate of free markets, that you would be taking such an interventionist approach to energy pricing?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, it's never your first choice, Jonathan, but the reality is that this is market that hasn't been delivering to its customers. There has been some bad behaviour from the big energy companies, some rip offs in all sorts of areas and it's got to stop. Competition can help to stop this, but so too can regulation. My hope here is that whilst this - the legislation we're proposing here and the issues we're proposing here - do give the Government some big sticks, the companies will do the right thing in the coming months. Australian electricity customers will get a better deal. They'll get more reliability in the coming years, more supply that they desperately need, and the lower prices they desperately need - and so the big stick can go back into the bag.

JONATHAN GREEN: If it's a market which has failed to some extent, why have we had to wait so long for this intervention?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, there's been a number of interventions over time, but it's clear from the work the ACCC did recently - which we commissioned - that there are some really endemic structural failures here in the market. So, establishing a price safety net for customers, a legislative package to stop the price gouging, and indeed, underwriting new investments in reliable generation, all of these things are now necessary in order to make sure that we get the low prices and the reliability that Australians deserve.

JONATHAN GREEN: They're about as bad as the banks, aren't they?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, it's clear that there has been some bad behaviour. Now, we are laying out the outcomes we want from the energy companies - very clear outcomes - lower prices, more reliability, and we will be absolutely, relentlessly focused on seeing those outcomes, making sure those outcomes happen.

JONATHAN GREEN: I mentioned the banks because that's another instance where we've had tough cops on the beat, we've had big sticks, and here, we've got another big stick in energy. What guarantee do we have that it'll be effective?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, we've been very clear on the outcomes we want. We want lower prices, particularly for customers who don't have the time or ability to go and negotiate better deals themselves. We've made it very clear we want to see lower wholesale prices, we want to see more investment in the right sort of balance of generation, and we'll see very quickly whether the energy companies are coming to the task. We'll be measuring them very clearly, and if they don't do the right thing, we will use the sticks that are in this package, Jonathan. I mean, what's so different here is we are very, very outcome focused. We're using the ACCC to measure those outcomes, and the Australian public know that the big energy companies are on notice now, they've got to do the right thing.

JONATHAN GREEN: One of those outcomes, and the Prime Minister mentioned this today in his social media video, is pushing companies towards a certain kind of energy generation. From that, I guess we imply coal generated power. This is an interesting thing because the government has decoupled climate change objectives from the price of power objective that were once combined within the National Energy Guarantee. Yet, we saw at the weekend in the Wentworth by-election that there's considerable community sympathy for a tough position on climate change. In adopting a new position which pushes energy generators into coal, is that going to be politically damaging?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, you haven't characterised it correctly. We need to make sure that we have enough reliable generation in the system. We must make sure that happens. We've seen what happens when you don't have that. You have very high prices and you have poor reliability. That is what's happened in South Australia as the dispatchable power, the reliable power that comes when you need it, has been pushed out of the system. But, Jonathan, to your point about emissions, we are very, very confident that in the electricity market we'll reach our emissions commitments well ahead of time, well ahead of time, and the reason for that is in the next three years, we'll see a 250 per cent increase in the wind and solar coming into our electricity grid. That's a $15 billion investment that's happening, and that will ensure we do reach our emissions targets and reach them well ahead of time, and it gives us the space, then, to address this underlying issue, which Australians are concerned about, of getting prices down and making sure that we keep the lights on, which has been a real struggle in markets where we're further down this track like in South Australia.

JONATHAN GREEN: You've put a number on that. I mean, you say this will save households up to $832 a year. Those households are going to come back and bite you if that doesn't happen.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, every household and business is different, Jonathan. What we've got is a loyalty tax being charged to customers.

JONATHAN GREEN: Yes.

ANGUS TAYLOR: So, if you stay with the same retailer and you don't go in and negotiate a better price each year, threaten to switch, or switch suppliers, then you get whacked with a loyalty tax. Unfortunately, that tax has increased over the time. So, in Victoria for instance, four years ago it was about $250. Now, it's closer to $500 that people are paying for loyalty, they're paying for loyalty. Well, that loyalty tax has to go. Tt's a significant saving. I'd strongly encourage people out there - businesses and households - who haven't negotiated with their energy companies in recent years to get on the phone and say you want a better price. So, there are better prices to be had. Not everyone has the time or ability to do that, and what we're putting in place is a price safety net where customers will get a fair price even if they don't have the time and ability to negotiate a better one.

JONATHAN GREEN: Energy retailers state the obvious - that it's, to some extent, anti-competitive, it's a price cap that might force smaller players out of the industry.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, it's a price benchmark against which we'll be measuring the performance of the companies, but most importantly, we want that loyalty tax to go, and then the second thing we want out of this is the confusion to disappear because you can go and get four or five offers from different energy companies, and they'll all offer you different discounts, but in fact, they'll be discounts versus a different benchmark, which is hopeless. I mean, you're not comparing apples with apples. Well, we want to make it very transparent. When I ring a couple of energy companies, ask them for a price, they give me a discount. I know it's all against the same benchmark, I can compare with apples with apples, and I can get a better price. It makes the process much simpler.

JONATHAN GREEN: States on board?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, you know, at the end of the day, on this issue, we would like the states to implement it - and there's clearly some states that do want to implement it - but, if we can't get their cooperation, we'll do it ourselves. This is too important to not happen.

JONATHAN GREEN: What does that mean - do it yourself? You'll override state legislation?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, we have powers to do this, but we would prefer the states do it. There is a framework in place through the COAG Energy Council where the states can put this price safety net in place, and we will encourage them to do it. If they don't, we'll do what is necessary to make sure this initiative is implemented by 1 July. It is too important to Australian consumers to have it not implemented.

JONATHAN GREEN: A final question, it is power related, though it's a different sort of power, Angus Taylor. The Prime Minister has delegated some of his potential obligations - he's not going to represent Australia at an illegal fishing conference in Bali. In fact, he's sending Malcolm Turnbull - does that strike you as slightly strange?

ANGUS TAYLOR: No look, I mean, this is not without precedent. There are precedents. We saw John Howard went off to represent Australia at a memorial service in Bali in 2012, and Tony Abbott at Villers-Bretonneux in 2018 more recently. Malcolm Turnbull was personally invited to attend the conference by the Indonesian Government. As the former prime minister, I think Mr Turnbull's attendance will be well received by our Indonesian neighbours.

JONATHAN GREEN: He possibly has a better relationship with President Widodo after last week's Israel Embassy announcement from Scott Morrison.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Look, I think our relationship with the Indonesians is a good one. We're neighbours, so there's always issues we're working through, but I think, fundamentally, it is a good relationship - it serves both of us, both Indonesia and Australia, well.

JONATHAN GREEN: Minister, thanks for your time.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks for having me, John.