DEB KNIGHT: And joining us as they do every Friday, Angus Taylor, the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction, and Joel Fitzgibbon, the Labor Member for the Hunter. And I reckon, Joel, you'd have plenty of wombat poo out your way, wouldn't you?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: All over the place, Deb.

DEB KNIGHT: Well, I've sold the issue.

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Even more in the Labor's party room in Canberra.

DEB KNIGHT: Well, let's kick off with that, shall we? Let's kick off with that because I reckon you'd have a bit of a spring in your step. You got your way. Mark Butler, he's out of climate change. Albo's listening to you, Joel.

JOEL FITZGIBBON: They should all listen, Deb. Look, I'm very happy about the change. I think it sends a very strong message to our traditional base in particular that we're having a bit of a rethink. It's a bit of a mea culpa that we may have got a few things wrong over the course of the last six or seven years. But as I've said very publicly, changing the jockey is not enough alone. We need to demonstrate that we're also contemplating a new policy course and recalibrating our language, which I think is very, very important if you're going to win back those people who we were born to represent.

DEB KNIGHT: And has Albo been reading a bit of Harry Potter over the summer break? Because they've got Voldemort in that series, the evil name that no one wants to mention, but he was treating Tanya Plibersek a bit like Voldemort yesterday. Why did he have to be almost forced into mentioning Tanya's name? Have her stocks as a potential leader risen that much?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: We're very lucky, Deb, to have lots of talented people on our team, and Tanya's one of them. I don't think she's unhappy about the reshuffle, but I think that it is good she's out there talking in the community about Labor values and our ambitions for the country. I think we need more people out there doing that.

DEB KNIGHT: Angus, is your team working through scenarios of having either Tanya or Richard Marles, or even Jim Chalmers as Labor leader?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, you can change jockeys but it doesn't necessarily change the horse, obviously. I mean, can I congratulate Joel. What we've seen is Albo making an extraordinary backflip on Mark Butler, having said he was the best thing since sliced bread late last year. But look, I think Joel's got a bit of work to do. We had Butler's successor Chris Bowen on another channel this morning not only spreading mistruths in saying that investment in electricity generation has collapsed in this country - it hasn't, it's at record levels - but he also twice failed to back in a new gas generator in the Hunter Valley. This is the basic stuff that we need for manufacturing and jobs in this country. And we need the Labor Party supporting these important policies. I know Joel does, but it's important we get some bipartisan support for these really critical initiatives that are going to make a real difference to Australian workers. 

DEB KNIGHT: And why, Joel, were you campaigning for an overhaul of the rules around leadership changes within Labor? Are you confident that Albo will be leading the party at the next election?

JOEL FITZGIBBON:  Well, just first of all, Deb, I think Angus was a bit hard on Chris Bowen. I mean, he's still got his training wheels on. After all it is his first day in the job. I think Chris will come to learn that the reason we've got a fall-off in investment in energy generation is that we can't get more renewables into the system until we get more firming power into the system, and that means that, well certainly one option, the preferred option is one or two new gas-fired generators. That's the important thing he needs to come to understand. Sorry, I've forgotten your question.

DEB KNIGHT: Why were you looking at wanting to change the rules of switching leaders?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Oh, the leadership. I wasn't really, I was just making the point. I was asked whether the rule change is still appropriate, and I said it's not an issue in the current context. However, it's designed in a way which could potentially allow a leader to be elected without the majority of support of the party room. So, Angus will understand the consequences of that. You've got someone leading the party who doesn't enjoy the majority of support of people who sit in the party in Canberra. So, I think that needs to be addressed. It's a small risk, but it's a risk just the same.

DEB KNIGHT: Do you really think that Albo is going to be leading the party in the next election?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Yeah, I do. And I think he still has plenty of time to steer the party back to what I call the sensible centre. But, you know, electoral success won't come to him. He's got to go to it. 

DEB KNIGHT: Yep. 

JOEL FITZGIBBON: And he really does need to get out there into the regions, visiting coal mines, visiting gas projects, abattoirs, manufacturing plants, those workshops sheds which so rely upon the gas and the coal industries. He needs to go out there. Look, they've formed the view, Deb, that we deserted them. And you won't get them back through nuance. You need to get out there amongst them, and loudly and proudly tell them how much we value what they do and how much we support them. If you can do that, he'll be very competitive in the next election.

DEB KNIGHT: Well, let's see if he manages it. Now, just on gas, Angus, Aussie manufacturers say last week's deal with the LNG exporters won't bring prices down for Australians. And many people, of course, don't like the idea of the government building a gas fired power station, which you've committed to build in the Hunter. But the New South Wales Government, they're committed to large scale renewable projects. So, the gas policy of yours, how is it going to work?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, we need more gas supply coming on. Narrabri has been approved in New South Wales. We've been up in the Beetaloo Basin, for instance, which is an incredible new area. We need that supply coming on. We do need to see competitive pricing. Actually, we've seen in the last 12 months, before COVID struck indeed, a more than halving of wholesale gas prices. So, they are on the way down. That's good news, and we'll continue to see that passed through to customers. But there's more work to do. We need the right pipeline infrastructure. We've asked for an industry code of conduct, an industry code which needs to be in place this year. So, all of these things have got to happen to continue to take advantage of this extra supply that we are seeing coming into the marketplace. And this is crucial for manufacturing. It's crucial for electricity generation. It's crucial for firm generation, making sure that that solar people are putting on their roofs can be backed up. And I know Joel is a big supporter of gas' role in exactly that. This is crucial for all of us.

DEB KNIGHT: Is it going to bring down prices, though?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, they've come down. This is my point. We've seen wholesale prices more than halve in recent times. And it's crucial now we lock that in for customers and we take advantage of that with investment in the downstream sector. It's true that we've got to make sure this industry code reflects internationally competitive prices. That's what customers want and that's absolutely appropriate. But I think all of that's achievable. 

DEB KNIGHT: Now, I want to talk China as well, because New Zealand's Trade Minister, Damien O'Connor, says that we here in Australia should follow the lead of New Zealand and show China more respect. And I thought the lack of respect was pretty much a one-way street, really, with China leading the charge. Angus, is it fair enough, these comments from Damien O'Connor?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, look, let me tell you, our approach in China is very simple. It is have very clear principles about not trading away our sovereignty, but recognising that economic trade is mutually beneficial between us and China, and- 

DEB KNIGHT: Are we are showing them respect? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: And be patient. Well, being principled is not about respect - being principled is just the right thing to do for our country and for the future of our relationship with China. There's no point dropping your principles and then realising a year or two later that you've done the wrong thing. That doesn't serve anyone's purpose. So we'll remain principled. We'll remain patient. And we'll continue to be proactive in reaching out to the Chinese and saying we want to continue to build those economic relationships, which have been, they continue to be our biggest trading partner and we're confident that that can continue.

DEB KNIGHT: And Joel, New Zealand's offered to be a kind of mediator between Australia and China, should we take them up on the offer?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Well I think the New Zealand minister has made a reasonable point, Deb. If you want to be a leader, a successful leader, you've got to be both principled and respectful of everyone, but particularly respectful of your major trading partner. The reality is that in recent years, Deb, Malcolm Turnbull, Scott Morrison and others, particularly some people who are on the backbench, have not been very respectful of our major trading partner. They've been disrespectful because they think that carries votes for them here in Australia. But in doing so, what they've done is basically cut off from us our major trading partner and that's hurting our coal miners, our growers, our producers, our meat processors, our foresters- 

DEB KNIGHT:  Yeah, but come on. Come on, Joel. We haven't been posting, our senior government officials haven't been posting on Twitter disgusting doctored images of Chinese soldiers holding the knives to children. That's come from China. We haven't been slugging them with tariffs or banning their imports. That's come from China. The respect, it's certainly not a two-way street here.

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Oh come on, Deb, I know it's popular to be anti-China, but- 

DEB KNIGHT: It's not anti-China. I don't care who's doing it.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Joel, whether it's popular or not. Whether it is popular or not-

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Hang on Angus, it is my turn. We could not have been more disrespectful, with language like Shanghai Sam and putting in place discriminatory thresholds for the Foreign Investment Review Board. There was a time there while Malcolm Turnbull was Prime Minister, Deb, you couldn't have lunch with someone of Chinese descent for fear of being called a spy or disloyal to our country. And of course, the 2016 white paper under Malcolm Turnbull walked away from the engagement approach with China to one of regression and containment. It's there written down, Deb. So let us not rewrite history. And now, of course, we can't even get them to pick up the phone to us. Well, no wonder, and this government created this problem and this government has to fix it.

DEB KNIGHT: Right of reply to Angus.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Can I respond to that, Deb? 

DEB KNIGHT: Yes.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Look, when you are principled, when you stand up for your country, whether it's popular or not, that's absolutely secondary in any of this. It's what is right for Australia. It's not a question of whether you're respectful or disrespectful. Frankly, being principled in the long term is the most respectful thing for both sides of any relationship. And that is the approach we're taking. We will continue to take it. Deb, you're absolutely right in the example you gave. We will stand up for our interests when we see things that are absolutely inappropriate. And that is what the Australian people expect us to do, and that's what we should do and we'll continue to. But at the same time, we're patient and we'll be proactive. And I'm confident that over time, that will pay dividends. These things don't solve themselves overnight, but as long as we put a line in the sand and say, this is what we stand for and we can have a strong economic relationship within those guidelines, then I think it will serve us well. 

DEB KNIGHT: Alright. I want to end on this, because I'm getting calls, texts and emails about it - fax machines - I didn't think they existed anymore. Do you guys still use them in your offices, Joel?

JOEL FITZGIBBON: No, I don't, Deb. And if I did, I wouldn't say I did. I would fib, Deb. [Laughter]

DEB KNIGHT: You wouldn't admit to it. What about you, Angus?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well I had to ask my team this question because I personally haven't used one for years. But it turns out we moved offices a little while ago and we dumped the fax machines. I think the camera has, the iPhone camera has seen the end of the fax machine. 

DEB KNIGHT:  Yeah. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: They were a total pain I felt, so it's good to see them going- 

DEB KNIGHT: Well apparently, they're still used widely in doctors' offices and in hospitals. And Ted's just sent me an email saying that the first images of the moon's surface were sent by a fax machine. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: There you go.

DEB KNIGHT: There you go. Yeah. 

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Hey Deb, apparently they're less prone to foreign interference! [Laughter]

DEB KNIGHT: Well, they don't work very well. Maybe they just can't get through. Anyway, 

fellas, good to talk. We'll talk to you again next week.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks, Deb. Thanks, Joel.

JOEL FITZGIBBON: Appreciate it.

ENDS