FIONA WYLLIE: The Federal Government has released a discussion paper highlighting its Technology Investment Roadmap, setting out Australia's energy priorities as it seeks to bring down carbon emissions over the next 30 years. In that roadmap, gas has been identified as an important part in balancing renewable energy sources, which were still seen to have reliability issues. Of course, we have the Narrabri Gas Project awaiting approval from the New South Wales Government and what role is that going to play in the plan. To discuss this, I have the Federal Energy Minister with us, Angus Taylor on Statewide Drive. Good afternoon Minister.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Good afternoon Fiona.

FIONA WYLLIE: Tell us about the purpose of this paper. What are you hoping to achieve with it?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, it's all about reducing emissions and at the same time maintaining a strong economy, jobs growth, low cost of living, driving down the cost of energy and making sure we've got a secure, reliable set of energy sources for Australia's future. And we have done very well as a country over a long period of time on the back of very reliable, affordable sources of energy. We've worked hard over the last couple of years to drive those costs down, but we're also seeing emissions coming down and we want to maintain that over a long period of time. Technology is the key. Humans have always solved difficult problems with technology and what we're saying in this plan is our approach is technology, not taxes. We don't want to raise the cost of fuels, we want to reduce the costs, and that means deploying technology to bring lower emissions, fuel sources and technologies online, and at the same time, ensure that we've got a strong economy based on those affordable fuel sources.

FIONA WYLLIE: We've heard for many years that the industry wants some certainty in government policy. Is this what this roadmap is trying to deliver?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, you can never give people complete certainty in life. I mean, you only have to look at the last few months to see the great uncertainty in the world around us. But we can certainly make sure that there's a very clear direction for government policy and that's exactly what we're doing here. We're making a very clear statement that technology is the way forward. And look, we've already been seeing it. I mean, we have one of the highest levels of penetration of household solar in the world. Almost one in four houses now has solar cells on their roofs. We are fast technology adopters in this country. It works well. We're good at it. We have great ingenuity and enterprise. And so, we're really tapping into that.

FIONA WYLLIE: What about the Narrabri gas project? Where does it sit in the plans?

ANGUS TAYLOR: This is all about a balance of different technologies and fuel sources. The idea that one is the answer to everything – and lots of people like to hold that position – is not pragmatic. Gas has an important role to play and it's particularly important because it’s very flexible, it’s increasingly affordable - we're seeing the cost of gas coming down on the east coast - and it means it's complementary to intermittent renewables like solar and wind. Now, we need more supply on the east coast. That's incredibly important. More local supply if we possibly can. We've recently done a deal with the New South Wales Government where they've committed to an extra 70 petajoules of gas. Narrabri would be one way to deliver that 70 petajoules of gas and it would be a good way to do it. It's not the only way. That will ultimately be a decision for the New South Wales Government but Narrabri could be part of that answer.

FIONA WYLLIE: What about the concerns that the project will remove some 37.5 gigalitres of water over the lifetime of the project? We've just come out of drought in that region. Are you concerned?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Look, this is a decision for the New South Wales Government and it's got to meet their environmental guidelines and requirements and legislation, as it has to meet ours under the EPBC Act. So, that has to be gone through, and if it meets those environmental hurdles, then it would be a great way to supply that gas locally. I mean, look, there's no doubt, if we want stronger jobs, more industry, affordable energy in this country, then having access to low cost gas to complement the unprecedented investments we've seen in renewables in recent years, that would be a good answer. But as I say, I'm not going to pre-empt the decision of the New South Wales Government. I'm just saying that that would be a good outcome. One way or another though, we need more gas locally in New South Wales and that will make a real difference to our energy challenges and to making sure that we get enough renewables coming into the system.

FIONA WYLLIE: Are batteries part of the roadmap?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yeah, they can be, and in fact, batteries are playing an important role, increasingly important role in the grid, particularly for dealing with disruptions to the grid. So, if the frequency gets out of control – and this happens from time to time particularly with more and more renewables in the grid – batteries can play a very, very important role in rectifying that and getting the grid back to stability. It's not yet, batteries aren't yet at a cost where they can provide a very significant storage solution. Pumped-hydro can do that and that's why we're committing to the Snowy 2.0 project that you know well, Fiona, and that's an important means of storing energy. But batteries can play a role but, you know, like all of these things, it's about having a mix of technologies and fuel sources.

FIONA WYLLIE: There's been criticism that there aren't any objectives for decreasing emissions in the paper. Do you have objectives for how much less carbon will be emitted, and when we will get to those targets?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yeah, absolutely. We’ve got a 2020 target. We’ll meet that easily. We’re only six months away from the end of that, obviously, and we’re way ahead of that 2020 target which was set many years ago. Our 2030 target is set. We already have a plan to meet those targets. We’d like to beat them and technology gives us the opportunity to beat those targets. And of course, we’d like to continue to reducing emissions beyond 2030. Obviously that far out, you’re reliant on technologies that we know something about now, but there’s still a lot of work to do on those. And the period from beyond 2030 for the world really is reliant on improving those technologies now so that they are low cost, affordable sources of energy in the future.

FIONA WYLLIE: What about zero emissions? Do you think in our lifetimes we'll see that?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Look, I think technology offers us the potential to get to net zero. There's no question about that. I mean, the debate is about when, and technology delivers when it delivers. But we can influence that too. So, we can play a role in accelerating the pace at which those technologies get to parity. We’ve set a goal, for instance, for hydrogen which offers enormous potential for electricity generation, but perhaps more importantly for industrial processes like steelmaking. We've set a goal of getting the cost of producing hydrogen down below $2 per kilo. At that price, it's competitive with gas. And so, setting those economic goals so those technologies reach parity so no one has to pay for those lower emitting technologies to be used - they’re used because they're sensible technologies for investors and businesses and consumers to use. That's how we get to lower emissions, and at the same time avoid raising the price of energy for businesses and for households.

FIONA WYLLIE: Minister, the Bushfire Royal Commission started today. It was a summer of fires like no other that we've seen in New South Wales. Has it changed your approach to energy and climate change?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, our approach always was to continue to drive down emissions and of course we should continue to do that. I mean, the bushfires are obviously tragic for many. I saw it in my electorate more than most. As you know, the south-eastern New South Wales certainly bore the brunt of it. And you know, I was personally on the ground at the fire grounds and at the RFS stations throughout talking to many who had seen some pretty traumatic events. And it was a tough time, and so we have to do everything we can to deal with that, prevent it, and be in a position if it is to occur again, and no doubt we will have big bushfires again in this country. We've got to be in a position to deal with that and I'm sure the Royal Commission will make a sensible set of recommendations about how to do that.

FIONA WYLLIE: What about the pandemic? Is it an opportunity to rethink how we do things, to invest in new technologies, to convert more quickly to renewables?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, we've been on this course before the pandemic and we'll stay on course. The formula is simple here: we want to make sure that Australians have affordable energy, that our energy intensive businesses in farming, in transport, in industry continue to survive and prosper and strengthen post-pandemic. There's no doubt though the pandemic is highlighting the importance of job creation. I think we're going to have an important debate in this country about how we make sure that we have strong jobs growth coming out of COVID-19. That's going to be enormously important, and investment in industry and having affordable energy will be critical to that.

FIONA WYLLIE: Some critics argue that we didn't need another survey of technologies that might save us, instead needing regulatory reform and plans on how to use them. Will you be pushing for that? Actual regulatory reform?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Sure, and we're doing it. I mean, our National Hydrogen Strategy lays out a series of reforms that have got to happen to make sure that hydrogen has every chance of success. What we're not going to do is raise taxes, and lots of people arguing for regulatory reform, when you push them, are actually arguing for a tax. We're not going to do that because raising the cost of energy, raising the cost of living, raising the cost of doing business is not the way to create jobs and to make people better off. So yes, knocking down barriers, absolutely, but no to taxation.

FIONA WYLLIE: Jack says: “Mad not to take an opportunity like the gas at Narrabri and make the most of it. All regional communities want decentralisation and population growth. You need a catalyst. This is what we are doing here at Narrabri. Locally sourced energy, inland rail and ag will drive a transport manufacturing and value-adding inland port to drive economic growth not seen before in the region. It's not pie in the sky stuff if you're smart about it,” says Jack.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yeah, good on Jack. [Laughter] I agree with that!

FIONA WYLLIE: It’s good when you get a fan, isn’t it?

ANGUS TAYLOR: Agriculture and energy do offer real opportunities for job creation and manufacturing coming out of this. One of the points that Santos have made - who are behind that Narrabri project - is that they will use all this gas locally and they'll look to establish contracts with local manufacturers to create jobs, and I think that's a very good aspiration. If this project is to succeed that would be a very good thing.

FIONA WYLLIE: Minister, thank you very much for making yourself available today.

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks for having me, Fiona.

ENDS