GARY ADSHEAD: All right. Without further ado, let's get over to Canberra where we're going to talk to the Labor Resources Minister Madeleine King and Liberal Senator Dean Smith, who should be there. Hello guys. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: How are you going, Gary? 

DEAN SMITH: G'day, Gary, how are you? 

GARY ADSHEAD: Very good. Thanks very much for joining us again as we continue the campaign here on ABC 720. All right. First, I've just got to get your reaction to this story that's, you know, developing about these two health workers and what they said about treating, or rather not treating Israeli people. What have you made of that, you two? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I mean I just saw the footage a little while back in my office, and I'm sure - much the same, it's - I've never seen anything quite like it, to be honest, and shocking is an understatement. I mean obviously in a hospital setting and health workers makes it even worse, but if it was anyone saying that in any circumstance, it's horrific. So I'm just, you know, appalled. This kind of attitude around other people and their lives and health is just out of this world really. 

DEAN SMITH: Well, you know, I'd add to that, Gary, by saying, you know, it's a shameful act, it's outrageous. I think many people would, you know, would have found, you know, hard to believe that this was happening at all, hard to believe that this was happening at all. Unfortunately it is, it's now been, you know, videoed, I mean how outrageous and horrendous is that? I think it's probably a time when we just sort of all need to knuckle down, show some - a spirit of sort of bipartisanship and cooperation with each other and sort of make sure that our national leadership is quick to respond, quick to stamp these things out, and we just need to remain very, very vigilant in calling out this behaviour. This is outrageous, it is un-Australian, and it's totally unacceptable. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, obviously, you know, previously the Coalition have been pretty strong saying that Anthony Albanese hasn't done enough in terms of getting out there in front of this. What do you say now, Dean, given what we've just seen in the last 24 hours with this video? 

DEAN SMITH: Well, Gary, unfortunately, we have come a very long way since May 2022. It's not happy progress; it's not good progress. I do - I am someone who believed, and I've said this in the Parliament, I've said this in other media commentary, national leadership is absolutely critical. I do believe that we should have seen the risks that arose from the 7 October events more quickly, our national leadership should have been more decisive and sort of really been clear in terms of our position. And I would argue, and Madeleine might disagree, but I would argue that for a long time our country had had a very strong bipartisan position on matters regarding the Middle East. I think that is less true now. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Yeah. Do you want to have a say on that? Is it bipartisan, or should it be more bipartisan, Madeleine? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I think we're very much agreed, certainly in relation to these videos, but of course all the antisemitism we have seen arises something that disgusts the Prime Minister as much as anyone. And I'll just note, just so that everyone's aware, that those two individuals have been referred to the New South Wales Police and action will be taken. We've had new hate crimes enacted just last week that will - this week, sorry - you know, will likely apply to these people, and we'll have to let that investigation go on, I wouldn't want to jeopardise it, but you know, the full force of the law has to go to these two individuals, but to everybody else as well that thinks they can do it. And I do think there are other institutions in our community that have sometimes dropped the ball on this.  I think some of the encampments that were allowed to persist at universities right across the country and in WA as well. 

DEAN SMITH: Correct, yep. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I think administrations letting that go on for as long as it did was, you know, entirely inappropriate. It's difficult for governments to force these institutions to do things, but they should just do it anyway. 

DEAN SMITH: But any action by the New South Wales authorities that might suggest or give the suggestion to people that this sort of behaviour is permissible, then that would be a failing on the part of - it would be a failing on the part of authorities. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I would entirely agree with what Dean has just said, and I think we've all seen Premier Chris Minns has been very strong in this regard, and we know the Australian Federal Police are supporting the New South Wales Police in their investigations to individuals, you know, I think immediately stood down, as well they should be. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Yep, all right. Now, listen, as the Resources Minister, Madeleine King, you must have been delighted to see the production tax credits part of the Future Made in Australia policy pass through the Senate. Of course, the Greens and the crossbenchers helped you out there. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Look, Gary, I am delighted, and to be honest, I think secretly Dean might be delighted about that. 

DEAN SMITH: [Indistinct] you will give me the right to respond, Gary. 

GARY ADSHEAD: You've been verballed.

DEAN SMITH: All right, I'll wait for-- 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Let's let Dean have a say in a minute, I'm sure he will. But it's hard to underestimate how important this initiative is, and it's, you know, $17 billion support for an emerging resources sector, an emerging part of our resources sector, that builds upon, of course, you know, greatly successful, what I call the traditional resources sector of iron ore and coal and gas and gold and other minerals. So it is the biggest injection of support for critical minerals, in fact it's the biggest government commitment to the resources sector of any government. It also, you know, will prove really helpful in a lot of our relationships around the world showing that this Government and this nation is really serious about making sure we can process these critical minerals here and make sure those supply chains are secure for us and our friends around the world. So I am really proud of it. We worked with industry to make it, it wasn't my bright idea, I sought ideas from industry as to how we could best help, and this is what they came up with, and we worked hard to refine it, and we'll happily continue to work with industry to make sure it's implemented very well. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Is it still a handout for billionaires, Dean Smith? 

DEAN SMITH: Well, first thing I'd say, Gary, is, you know, the Liberals have a very, very proud record when it comes to development in Western Australia, Ross McLarty, David Brand, Charles Court, Richard Court, Colin Barnett. So the Liberals are absolutely committed to development and downstream processing in Western Australia, that is very, very clear. But our criticism of this bill has been a simple one. What the bill proposes is the imposition of what are called community benefit principles. We argue that the imposition of those community benefit principles adds a layer to existing environmental laws, adds a layer to rigid Workplace Relations, adds layers in regards to Indigenous consultation. I was disappointed that in the Senate, when I moved an amendment that would have removed some of these what we argue are duplicative processes, Labor and the Greens voted against my amendment. That was an amendment that was carefully constructed that would have been proof, that would have been proof that these community benefit principles, which are in the rules, which are in the law, would not add additional regulatory requirements, and therefore additional costs and additional uncertainty to projects in Western Australia. At the core of this issue is the fact that project costs are too high for mineral and resource developments in our country. We argue that this particular - everyone's focus is on the tax credit, and I can totally understand that, and I can understand why industry would not oppose a tax credit. But what we're saying is that the devil--

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Industry came up with the idea of the tax credit. 

DEAN SMITH: --the devil, the devil is in the absolute detail here. The matter is actually not finished, the matter's not finished, so I suspect after the Election the Government, if it's a Labor Government, will need to bring forward to the Parliament what are called various disallowable instruments. So we will see, we'll have full clarity, and indeed the industry will have full clarity, about whether this is going to be regulatory overreach. Now we opposed this in the Senate, we don't shy away from that fact. My door will always be open to industry, but let's see the devil in the detail on the other side of the election if the Government's elected. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Can I just say, Minister, you know, obviously this helps in terms of production tax credits for developing green hydrogen, but you've been watching like big business run away from green hydrogen at a million miles an hour of late. So why on earth should there be any taxpayers' money going into that if it seems to be a complete lame duck? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, you could say that then for critical minerals as well, Gary, if you took it like that. The truth is, for critical minerals, it's an industry under enormous international market pressure. We have a dominant player that is literally forcing us out of business, and we want to be back in business, and this is what these tax credits are about, enabling - and the same - hydrogen's a nascent industry, that's absolutely true, and we know it can be and it should be part of our pathway to net zero that we want to get to. It's not going to happen overnight, and I totally accept that, I think everybody does, but to provide incentivisation to have private capital come in is really the name of the game here, and that's what the association of mining exploration companies said, and this is for the critical minerals, but the same goes for the hydrogen side of it, it brings in billions of dollars of investment because you've helped enable their investment decision in there through the tax credits. And just on the community benefits principles, I feel the WA Liberals are clutching at straws here to find a way to excuse themselves for what they have done in rejecting $17.6 billion for the industry. We have public interest tests in all sorts of very good and well-regarded institutions in this country. The Northern Australia Infrastructure Facility, a $7 billion fund that I have responsibility for, that has a set of public interest tests applied to every single loan, 'cause taxpayers' money is paying for these things, so there should be a community benefit, there should be a public interest applied to every test. And I mean I accept Dean's point that the regulations will come back under disallowable instruments, which is one of the more lesser - the less understood parts, I think, of our system, and I don't want people to drive off the road in boredom. 

GARY ADSHEAD: I'm just nodding here, I'm just nodding at the old disallowable instruments. 

DEAN SMITH: Yeah, I know, sorry, sorry to bore your - sorry to bore your listeners with, you know-- 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It's that Senate wizardry again, Gary. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Oh, yeah. 

DEAN SMITH: With the sort of Senate jargon. But if I could just make this point. When I asked Treasury officials to explain to me which regulations would be removed in order for these new regulations to be put in place, right, so the outcome of that would be no more regulation, they couldn't give me an answer, they wouldn't give me an answer, and our argument is a simple one. It is true, the Minerals Council and AMIC and all these people talked about how they like the tax credit; that's not a surprise. But in the same breath they also talked about the fact that a rigid Workplace Relations system, environmental rules and regulations, onerous Indigenous consultation mechanisms were adding costs to projects and making projects unviable. We say that that is the first hurdle that needs to be addressed. 

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. 

DEAN SMITH: Before you start using public money on projects like this. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: So in principle you agree to the production tax credits, you just don't like the principles?  

DEAN SMITH: We don't like the bill--

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: You don't like community benefit? 

DEAN SMITH: We don't like the bill, and we opposed the bill. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: So now the Liberals, in addition to supporting net zero emissions, you really want to do net zero regulations as well? That's a new one. 

DEAN SMITH: We would like to have less regulation, that's not a surprise, Madeleine. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: That's - well, no, I wouldn't mind less regulation. 

DEAN SMITH: You're grinning at me; you're grinning at me. That's not a surprise. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: We all want the system to be more efficient, we sure do. 

GARY ADSHEAD: If only I could see your faces. 1300 222 720. I've got Madeleine King and Dean Smith in Canberra talking to me. If you want to join the conversation feel free. If there's something that one of the two politicians say that you disagree with, or agree with, you can feel free to give us a bell, no problem there, we'll put you through to them. The tariffs, have you had a nod and a wink from the Prime Minister, Madeleine, that you know, he's got Trumpy on side and that we'll get that exemption in relation to steel and aluminium?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, there's a bit of work to be done here, Gary, you know, I think it's a really positive sign, of course, this phone call about the tariffs and our relationship, our trading relationship with the US and the whole Administration. So I think it's an excellent first step and we all welcome it. I think it's a very good thing, a really very good thing that after attacking us a bit in Question Time on Monday, Peter Dutton and the Liberal Party have come around and realised Team Australia really is a good approach in relation to this, and that's a good thing, and we will work together in the best interests of the nation to make sure-- 

GARY ADSHEAD: Should the phone call have only happened though at the 11th hour? I mean it seemed to be very much a crossover. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: My understanding, and I, you know, wouldn't pretend to understand the complexities of the Prime Ministerial diary, and it is complex, but - or a Presidential diary for that matter, I mean who knows what goes on? 

GARY ADSHEAD: Well. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: But, you know, these phone calls are scheduled when matters of interest come up. This is how the system has to work in an orderly fashion. And the good thing is, and the good thing for Western Australians is that there was a really positive phone call. We have a bit of work to do on continuing to prosecute our case, and you might have seen the press conference afterward where President Trump, you know, said he would give consideration and talked about the trade surplus that they have with us. So these are the positive things we've all been talking about, Dean has been talking about and others have as well, and President Trump has clearly been briefed on that and aware of that, and we'll keep talking to him and his people, and the very fine people in his Administration working with us on that. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Beautifully said. Is Kevin Rudd the right person to have there at the moment, Dean Smith? 

DEAN SMITH: Well, he's the man on the ground at the moment, Gary. I think we've been there before actually, when you were on a different radio station, if I remember. But this is definitely a Team Australia moment, this is definitely a Team Australia moment. We start from a very good and solid position, very, very strong friendship, relationship between ourselves and the United States, very, very important security relationship, as Madeleine said a trade surplus that is in, that is favourable to the negotiations. We have been here before, but this is a Team Australia moment, and it's important for Australia to get this right and to have a victory on this. I think more broadly on the tariff issue, this is a very, very interesting development, and I think what's important for us is, yes, we've got to protect our national interest and make sure that we put the best case forward, but we've also got to have a very, very keen eye to how those tariff decisions affect and impact our trading partners, because as an export orientated nation like ourselves, you know, we export to countries like China, we do believe that, you know, an open globalised trading system is in the best interests of consumers, whether they're in the United States, China or Australia. Tariffs are not a good thing, but that's of course a decision for President Trump. So I think we do need to sort of keep our eye on the long-term, you know, get this win in the bag. We are in a good position, I'm hopeful, but it is a Team Australia moment.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. Let's go to the line, Spiro's there, he wants to talk tariffs. G'day Spiro. 

SPEAKER: Good afternoon, how are you, mate? 

GARY ADSHEAD: Good, mate. Fire away.

SPEAKER: You know, the problem is the Government's forgetting that we sell minerals to all these countries, so I think that they should be looking at these other countries and saying, well, you know, "Unfortunately you're going to have to pay high tariffs on the minerals". 

GARY ADSHEAD: Ooh. 

SPEAKER: That's what I believe.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. 

SPEAKER: You know, well, you know, increase the taxes on the companies that - increase the taxes on the companies that dig out the minerals, increase the leases for the mining rights, you know. That solves our problem. It might cost us more money, but at least we can turn around and stand on our own two feet, you know, like-- 

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. Well, that's the worry though, isn't it, that this starts what you call trade wars, and Spiro, you know, says that we should be standing up for ourselves and hitting back. What do you say to that, guys? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I mean I agree with what Dean said toward the end of his comments about, you know, into the long‑term, and indeed right now, an open and free trading system is what Australia has benefitted from since the 80s when we raised that tariff war, and I could understand how people, like Spiro, and thanks so much for your call, Spiro, feel sometimes that we should impose costs or tariffs on our things that we export or import from other countries. But the truth is when we impose those extra taxes on a mining company or extra tariffs on something coming in, in the end the people that pay are ordinary consumers; ordinary consumers end up paying more where there's more tariffs. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Yep. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: And so the reason, you know, you can get an affordable television these days, you know, pretty big telly for, you know, not what it used to cost when I was a young person - younger, much younger person-- 

GARY ADSHEAD: Did you have a big telly back then? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Stop it. I didn't have a remote control. Sure didn't have Wi-Fi. But ‑ and streaming services, I just had the good old ABC, I might add. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Oh, well played. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: But you know, it's - and that's just one product, but it's because we've, you know, changed the way the world works by opening up, you know, access to trade, and it's benefitted us as a nation, us as individuals, it's benefitted those supply nations, but at the heart of it, and I think what Spiro's getting to is we do need to make sure we can get the things we want. We saw in COVID how those supply chains can be really challenged when they're concentrated in one market, and the same goes for critical minerals that are in our phones, our laptops, you name it, they're in it, it's even in your toothpaste. So, you know, you want to be able to make sure we can do it here as well. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Absolutely. And of course that could be the issue that the President does face down the track, where people think, okay, there he is, he's sabre rattling, he's talking about tariffs, and he's saying he's doing it for the betterment of America, and then suddenly people who, as an example ‑ I don't know if you know this one, folks, but there's a company here in Australia called Crusader Caravans who have these advanced orders. Now, you know, if they start sending their caravans into America after the tariffs of 25 per cent go on, if that's what happens, then those people selling them to the American consumer at the other end, they're going to be putting another price on it. 

DEAN SMITH: Well, that's a really important point, Gary. I mean, you know, it's none of our business, but tariffs are bad - is a bad idea for American consumers. So Donald Trump has just got himself elected the President, he's now talking about tariffs. Well, the people that pay the price for that in the first instance are American consumers. It is going to drive up inflation in the United States, it is undermine their international competitiveness, it will undermine domestic innovation. So none of my business, but I tell you what, I come from a political party and I come from an economic view that says that tariffs are bad for countries, they're bad for consumers, and they are not the sort of things that you do to make yourself internationally competitive. So I suspect it's only a matter of time before Donald Trump wakes up and realises he's actually impoverishing America, not making it great. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Now then, do you think that the Prime Minister is getting ready for a hung Parliament by having all those Teal MPs over for cocktails yesterday? Madeleine?  

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I thought you were asking Dean. I mean, I think it's just a common courtesy ‑‑ 

GARY ADSHEAD: Were you invited, Madeleine? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I - but I did go earlier in the week, so, you know ‑‑ 

GARY ADSHEAD: Oh, right. No blokes allowed; no blokes allowed. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: No, it wasn't like that at all, it was actually, you know, the Prime Minister has people at his house. That's as simple as that. 

GARY ADSHEAD: I've never been. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I have people at my house, Dean should come over [indistinct]. 

DEAN SMITH: Can I ask Madeleine; did it take her two and a half years to get an invite like it took Kate Chaney? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Not quite, Gary.

GARY ADSHEAD: What's it all about then, Dean Smith; what was that about, do you think? 

DEAN SMITH: Well, Gary, there's no such thing as a free lunch, a free dinner, or even a free cocktail party. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, there's a free lunch in your small business policy. 

DEAN SMITH: When I said that I thought I left myself wide open, you're absolutely right. But no such thing as a free cocktail party. So I'd be interested to know from Kate, you know, how did she advocate for WA's interests? Pretty unique opportunity, sitting around the table with the Prime Minister, you know, how did she advocate for WA's interests? Did she remind him that the live sheep export ban is bad, that she changed her position on that? Did she talk about nature positive? The Premier Roger Cook has said it's bad for WA. So I'm sort of more interested to know what was on the agenda, what did they talk about, what concessions were given? But it's also a good opportunity for me to talk about Tom White, our Liberal candidate in Curtin. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Unbelievable. 

DEAN SMITH: Who is excellent. 

GARY ADSHEAD: You can hit him with your elbow if you want. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I wouldn't dream of it. I'll let him bury himself. 

DEAN SMITH: Who is an excellent candidate, but the responsibility is now on Curtin voters, they need to think very, very carefully about their decision when the Election's held. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Okay. Madeleine King though, clearly, you know, a lot of the polling is starting to talk about hung Parliament, so in some way you guys have to be ready for that, don't you, and who you're best setting up government with and winning support from? So I suppose a charm offensive with the Teals isn't a stupid idea. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I know for certain it sure isn't the first time the Prime Minister's met with members of the crossbench. He meets with them, you know, not all the time, but not infrequently either, because they're Members of Parliament, and he's always said, and if you call him, you know, he'll see anyone, you know, a Member of Parliament and Senators, and maybe you too, Gary, I don't know. 

GARY ADSHEAD: I do, I do remember, I do remember, now that you said it, there was one moment where - he's very good on the fly with things. He arrived at that other radio station you talked about there Dean, one day, just in the middle of the person who was on work experience's birthday cake being brought out, and it was extraordinary. Like this poor young girl is sort of surrounded by just the people at work, and the Prime Minister walks up. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, what an honour. 

GARY ADSHEAD: And she's like - and he starts getting everyone to sing happy birthday. I mean, you know, he probably wishes there were cameras rolling on that. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: What, you're saying you didn't take a video?  

DEAN SMITH: It sounds like he came without a present, Gary. 

GARY ADSHEAD: I'm just trying to say he sort of dealt with that situation very well, and she was chuffed for it. I think there were photos all round. All right. So that's the Teals. That's the situation there that - and of course you'd be happy because the Teals were very much in favour of your production tax credits, weren't they, Madeleine? 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: They definitely were, and I think they can see the value in starting a new industry, and we talk about WA a lot and the vast amount of critical minerals and rare earths here, but you know, there's a lot of critical minerals and rare earths right around the country, there's a string of ‑ like a rare earths arc that goes from Dubbo to Alice Springs over to Eneabba, and of course south there to Mount Weld and Laverton, you know, really important deposits that are really important for our national economy, our future prospects and our national security. So I'm really proud of it. I know we have a difference of opinion on it, Dean, but I do think it's also - it's part of the price of admission too on how we negotiate with the rest of the world that wants to invest. We need their investment, you know, other countries' finance corporations, like Korea's and Japan's and the US and Canada. And the Government putting, you know, our money on the line to drive this industry is really part of, you know, playing our role as well so we can bring in the international capital. 

GARY ADSHEAD: All right. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: So super proud of it. 

GARY ADSHEAD: I've got to leave it there, folks. I really appreciate you joining us again. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: See you next week in Perth. 

DEAN SMITH: Yes. We'll be back in Perth. 

GARY ADSHEAD: Loving it, in the studio, can't wait for it. Madeleine King there and Dean Smith.