GARY ADSHEAD: All right, now, an interesting political divide has emerged in the wake of the Federal Government's Budget. So, Federal Liberal Leader Peter Dutton is against, repeat against, Labor's $13.7 billion tax credit policy for the resources sector, developing critical minerals like lithium or producing hydrogen from green energy, right? Now, that means that the government will need cross-bench support to get that measure up and running, I think it's by 2027. But, this is the big but, state Liberal Leader Libby Mettam says she supports the tax credit idea. It's great for WA, she says, which might make things when the state and federal election campaigns are up and running for 2025 rather awkward. Whenever you get a situation where Peter Dutton's standing alongside Libby Mettam, there's a couple of points that the media can quiz them on in terms of their divisive views. Now, Madeleine King is the federal Resources Minister and joins me now. Thanks very much for your time, Minister.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, good to be here, Gary, how are you this morning?

GARY ADSHEAD: Okay. I know there's a lot more to this than that particular ingredient that I just threw up there. But were you genuinely, were you surprised when both Peter Dutton and the shadow Treasurer, Angus Taylor, said that the tax credit scheme is no good because it's just lining the pockets of billionaires?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: To be honest, Gary, I was, I was staggered. And before the budget and reply speech, they'd said it, and I thought, well, a couple of days later they'll have a proper read of the budget papers and they'd adjust their settings, and I think in the interest of the nation, they should have done that, but they haven't. So, I genuinely was surprised and I imagine the Liberals in WA were also surprised. And Libby Mettam has voiced her concern. I know Rick Wilson is the same, the member for O'Connor in the federal parliament, because this is a nation building opportunity that we have to invest in. Critical minerals are difficult to process and we want to process more of them here, and that's why we are investing in this production tax credit, a long-term program. It's literally the biggest thing any Federal Government has done for the resources sector, and particularly this emerging resources sector, to make sure we can build it and we can build it here. It's really important and I'm staggered that the Liberals have just gone to lunch on it.

GARY ADSHEAD: Well, I'd proffer to say that perhaps this should have happened earlier because we're in a race, literally a global race in this type of scenario. But the reason, and I don't mean to sort of harbour on it with you too long, but the reason that I suppose it surprised people like myself is that the billionaires that they're talking about are ones that Peter Dutton's extremely close to being Gina Rinehart, for one. Andrew Forrest is another who they say would benefit from this and that they shouldn't be given this kind of taxpayers money because they've got their own, and if the project's good enough, it should stand alone. So, it was an interesting tactic.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, and it also just shows how little they know of the critical minerals area as well, and also the disrespect shown to job creators. I have my differences with some of the people you've mentioned, with Ms. Rinehart, Doctor Forrest and others, but at the same time, like, they have created thousands of jobs over many years. So, you know, you can't deny that and we shouldn't deny that. And usually the Liberal party would be the party that kind of encourages that. And of course, they're traditionally very close between Peter Dutton and Gina Rinehart. And that's, that's well and good, but I imagine she's a bit surprised too. But I do want to make clear, though, that the production tax credit goes to all miners in this space. And most of the mining companies and exploration companies seeking to develop critical minerals are actually quite small. They're called junior miners. So, whilst there are a few, of course these are smart people, they've got money. We want their investment to push these projects along. You know, quite frankly, those miners that have made a lot of money from iron ore, it's a really good thing that they're investing in this new emerging resources sector. But for the most part, it's junior miners that are taking risks into a brand new energy producing technology sector and they're going to be part of it and they need the help and we want them to be successful. And the production tax credit is based on success. So, I'm altogether staggered that the Liberals are just walked away from it.

GARY ADSHEAD: What are you going to do federally though, to get this through your, into your Budget? Greens don't seem to be exactly on board.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, the Greens, they're going to have a good look at it. 

GARY ADSHEAD: They're going to want something out of it. 

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, yeah. Well, there's always that side of things. Of course, it's a complex parliament and I do respect the people's choices in that regard. But I think that the Greens do understand that we need to have these minerals in order to make green technology. Sometimes the Greens political party don't quite understand you need some gas to make that happen as well. But we'll park that debate for another time, but we will keep working on it. And you know, I wouldn't be surprised if there's many in the Liberal party, in the west in particular, but there's also critical minerals projects right around the country and there'll be local members of parliament and the Liberal and the National Party that will be asking Peter Dutton "What the heck are you doing with this?" Like, this is good policy, just the kind of thing we need to do. It's what the American administration would like us to do, to step up to the plate and take on our responsibility, our global responsibility, to develop critical minerals here in Australia, to make those supply chains secure.

GARY ADSHEAD: And that's defence as well, isn't it? We're not just talking about, you know, batteries, UB batteries, we're talking about the defence industry.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: We're talking about defence applications, we're talking about microchips, we're talking about everyday things as well, like screens on laptops, you know, your phones and devices, as well as of course, very high-tech defence applications. And then there's batteries. So, this is everything needed for modern-day technology is really remarkably, and luckily for us, found in Western Australia. And I think the Liberals just shutting the gate on it without even looking at it just shows their deep ignorance of the resources sector of Western Australia and they're not to be trusted. You can't underestimate how big this production tax credit is for WA, but also for the rest of the country in developing a new resources sector.

GARY ADSHEAD: Is this what they asked for when we talk about the billionaires’ pockets? I mean, is this what they asked for? AMEC and organisations like that?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah. Well, I've been working on this for about a year, just under a year, with my team and with AMEC and with others. It hasn't just popped out of thin air or anything like that. It's been, a lot of work has gone into developing this policy and talking with Treasury and other experts and it absolutely has been worked on with industry. But I might say it's with those, the junior miners part of the industry more than anybody else. And I'm really proud to have worked with these entrepreneurial miners that are making great leaps in different minerals. And it's not just lithium, it's cobalt, it's graphite, it's platinum group elements. Really things people haven't really heard of, perhaps, but are going to form part of all the technology that we want, but more importantly that we need.

GARY ADSHEAD: Can I just get your reaction? It's basically about all of this, but the ABC reported yesterday that a report had been done that looks at what our greenhouse gas emissions for this year will be. And then the question as to whether or not we really are a chance of net zero by 2050. They came down on the side of this report which had CSIRO involvement of "No, we don't have any chance." What do you say to that?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, it's an imperative to reach net zero by 2050, and all governments are putting their shoulder to the wheel to make that happen. Reports like that are good reminders that we need to work harder. It is challenging for Western Australia because of the resources we have. We need a lot of them to process critical minerals that we're just talking about. And I think what's really important is how we move to the potential replacement fuels like hydrogen. And I really support hydrogen. I think the green steel ambitions of this state are untold. I think it's an amazing opportunity. But right now and for the next few years while we develop it, we can't, you know, turn off the lights or stop the power going for the things we need. So, we do need to just deal in reality, whilst we work our way to that net zero ambition. But I think we'll get there, and the thing is, we've really got to try to get there and I think -

GARY ADSHEAD: Do you think WA will get there?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, I do think WA will get there, and I think it's a long way off and technology changes and you need to. The Federal Government has a safeguard mechanism, so all new gas projects have to basically be carbon neutral. So, everything that's new has got to be abated. And that's, we've got to be really aware that it can net. Right. It's not absolute. You know, you can abate or you can sequester. You need to reduce emissions all the time to make that abatement a bit easier. But that abatement has to be part of the story. And this is what the International Energy Agency has set out. It's what any number of groups across the world have said has to be part of the net zero story, that it is net. And you have to abate and you have to sequester. 

GARY ADSHEAD: All right, because we've certainly seen in recent days and weeks, if this is an indication of where our climate's going in WA, then I will just say it, God help us.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, you know, it has been hot and dry and there's no doubt about it. You can see it in the bushland around us. I'm heading down to Paganoni Swamp near Golden Bay there and it's, it's awfully dry and the climate is changing. We do have to do what we can and all that we can to make sure that we reduce our impacts. But we also, you know, we have an industrialised world that we have to be realistic about. And I'm deeply committed to net zero emissions by 2050. But I also know we'll need some of the carbon-producing industries that we have to get us there. I mean, no one wants to not have cement, right? And so you have to find ways to abate cement. No, we need bricks for housing. So, you have to find ways to abate and bring down the emissions. And I think the investment in technologies around that are going to be really important.

GARY ADSHEAD: All right, hey, just final question. What's the cycle in terms of the debate now around this particular part of the budget, the $13.7 billion tax production credit? When will that start in earnest? Or are you already negotiating with the cross benchers as we speak?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Oh, no, that's got a bit of work to be done in designing the taxation changes. This is a big change, like you shouldn't underestimate how significant it is for this industry. So, we have to design it now, that's why it's going to take a couple of years to get started. Nonetheless, that still brings investment because it's a commitment of government that when you do start producing, you will get these tax credits. So, we'll start working on that within Treasury and the government. And to be honest, I'd be really surprised if the Liberals don't backflip on what is outrageously ridiculous decision, it's anti-Western Australian, if you ask me.

GARY ADSHEAD: Peter Dutton is here this week. So, it'll be interesting to see.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: You know, it absolutely will be very interesting and I really don't think they've thought it through. That wouldn't be the first time, though.

GARY ADSHEAD: I'll leave it at that. Thanks very much for joining us, Minister.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Thanks, Gary, thanks for your time.

GARY ADSHEAD: Federal Minister for Resources Madeleine King.