STEVE AUSTIN: Well according to next my guest, the jobs of tomorrow depend on the decisions we make today. They're the words of Australia's Minister for Science Ed Husic. And amongst some of the decisions the Minister has taken is the Albanese Government has said they're partnering with the Queensland Government to create a battery manufacturing precinct in Queensland and the Feds are apparently putting in $100 million.

I think the Minister for Science, Ed Husic, has been inspecting the facility today. Minister, good afternoon.

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: Hi Steve, how are you?

STEVE AUSTIN: I'm very well, thank you. You've been inspecting which battery manufacturing facility today, Minister?

ED HUSIC: I've been out at Redflow Batteries out at Oxley. They're part of the growing number of Australian firms that are developing their own technology. They've done it over the last ten years without any sort of visible or practical support out of government, but they're doing some really important work that's being recognised internationally as well.

And we're in the process of developing a national battery strategy to try and get more of this activity occurring because batteries will be a big part of our transition to renewable energy and we've got a lot of commercial and industrial users who want great batteries like using the technology like what Redflow are developing and we need to do more of it quicker and create a lot more opportunity, economic opportunity, in the process.

STEVE AUSTIN: Redflow have done this off their own back

ED HUSIC: M'hmm.

STEVE AUSTIN: Without support from your government or anyone else. How?

ED HUSIC: They've basically got investors; they've been able to work with universities and spin out their technology. They've worked with investors over time. Being able to get support earlier means they can obviously get that development work done in a much shorter time frame. But they've persisted and they've started developing a customer base. In Redflow's case they've worked with, for instance, Optus in helping provide batteries that can be used to ensure that particularly in remote areas or the areas that might be affected by bushfire that they can have battery back-up facilities for telecommunications equipment. They've been doing some work with the CSIRO as well and also working with California in getting some overseas opportunities to work with governments there.

We need to be able to do more of this stuff here, and we certainly as a new government are focused on well how do we actually make that happen? Go beyond the talk, start walking the walk and that's why I'm meeting with companies like this and developing a national battery strategy so we can get this done.

STEVE AUSTIN: The Albanese Government, of which you're a member, has previously announced the creation of battery manufacturing precincts here in Queensland and giving the State a $100 million injection. Where is that battery manufacturing precinct?

ED HUSIC: Well we've still got a lot of work to do in terms of developing it. We targeted getting it done in Gladstone and working with the Queensland Government to see how we can go. We've still ...

STEVE AUSTIN: So it's not happened yet?

ED HUSIC: It's not happened yet to be completely frank with you, and I'm not going to sidestep it. It does take a bit of work and what we're trying to do in terms of development of the strategy is start, in terms of the National Battery Strategy, is work out what different parts of the country will be capable of doing, how we can get it anchored, a lot of this work in Gladstone, and being able to as one part of this provide support for firms in the development phase.

So through the Budget last week put money aside for the creation of a dedicated Industry Growth Centre called the Powering Australia Growth Centre to work with small and medium enterprises involving this space to go, "Okay, how do we make you bigger? What are the things that we can do to support you to do that?" And we obviously want to see how we can get that done in terms of the battery precinct.

STEVE AUSTIN: Okay. So given what you've just told me about Redflow, doesn't the Redflow example show that you don't need to waste $100 million of public money to have a battery precinct in Gladstone when you've just shown that if, you know, companies are allowed to they just simply do it themselves, develop their own customer base and hey presto you, the Science Minister, is inspecting what they've done without any government support whatsoever?

ED HUSIC: Well if you can also remember, you remembered one part of the convo and you'll also - I'd encourage you to remember another part of what I said, which was around how long it takes. Like they have really had to stitch stuff together to be able to make this happen.

What we're trying to do, we recognise that we want to be able to cut emissions but also create jobs at the same time. This is a great opportunity to do it. We want to do it by 2030 and 2050, those key milestones, particularly getting to net zero. We haven't got time to waste. We've wasted or lost a decade of support, we're trying to ...

STEVE AUSTIN: Well no, we haven't. They've done it. Redflow have done it. It's happened. You're inspecting the plant.

ED HUSIC: Yeah, I come back to the point, that they've started, they want to do a lot more. And we lost a lot of time where we could have potentially accelerated growth among firms like this and we don't want to be losing time.

And so they're very keen to engage and they're saying, a lot of these firms are saying they're welcoming the active interest of government and they're saying as part of the development of the National Battery Strategy, "We need the signal sent by Government, we need supportive capital", like what we're putting aside for the National Reconstruction Fund, "And we need coordinated action and in particular Government procurement policies that help support this type of stuff too".

That's what we're working on. All those elements, Steve, were not present for the last few years. We could get a lot more Redflow type firms being created if we had that and that's what we're trying to do.

STEVE AUSTIN: My guest is the Minister for Science and Industry; his name is Ed Husic.

I'll just get you to clarify, walk me through these different funds.

ED HUSIC: M'hmm.

STEVE AUSTIN: So the National Reconstruction Fund, it's a $15 billion fund. In straightforward terms what is it going to do that doesn't happen now?

ED HUSIC: Sure. What we did post  or looking at what we went through in terms of lockdowns and the pandemic and the impact of not being able to get the products we need at the time we needed them, we've identified a number of areas of priority areas where we need to rebuild manufacturing capability, and being able to work with firms that need access to capital who find it hard to get that growth capital right now.

So you asked me what this will do differently. We want to be able through loans, guarantees and equity using the sort of model that was applied with the Clean Energy Financing Corporation to push ahead with renewables. The National Reconstruction Fund is about building manufacturing capability, providing access to that growth capital at lower costs than what they could get at the private market at the moment, and through that process

STEVE AUSTIN: Primarily a capital and body of funds at low interest loans

ED HUSIC: Correct.

STEVE AUSTIN: For people who want to do things that Australia needs that we don't currently have enough of or do?

ED HUSIC: Correct, that we can scale up. We know we've got strengths and so if we get a bit more of a push we'll be able to scale that up. And it's really important for us in those priority areas, be it value add in resources and agricultural, in energy, in transport, defence and also emerging capabilities and medical manufacture.

STEVE AUSTIN: I was going to say pharmaceuticals.

ED HUSIC: These areas will be - yeah, we're absolutely looking at in terms of medical manufacture.

STEVE AUSTIN: Okay.

ED HUSIC: What we can do to stand up our capabilities as well and to make sure, again, you know, learning the lesson of the pandemic, that in particular critical medicines, that we can have that developed onshore, manufactured onshore and made available for Australia and also for export into our region.

STEVE AUSTIN: Okay. My guest by the way is the Science Minister Ed Husic. He just explained to me the National Reconstruction Fund.

What is the Powering Australia Industry Growth Centre?

ED HUSIC: So we've had growth centres in different areas and what they've done, for example, in advanced manufacturing, medical, mining, for instance, what they do is they work with firms that have got new ideas, looking to commercialise ideas and grow them into firms and create products that they can then go out obviously and build a client base for. They do a combination of things. It's industry working with industry to grow them up using the lessons that others have learned and helping others grow, and potentially through grants as well because in some cases these firms, they're so small they're not going to make a rate of return, Steve, in an immediate sense but they do need support to develop their technology.

And so the Powering Australia Industry Growth Centre is designed that in particular people who are looking at renewable energy manufacture, the equipment that is used and vital for our transition, being able to grow those Australian firms where they're in their early stage, and have those SMEs grow, that's really what the industry growth centre is looking to do.

STEVE AUSTIN: My guest is Ed Husic, he's the Federal Industry and Science Minister. This is ABC Radio Brisbane. Steve Austin's my name.

I've asked the Minister to walk me through some of the programs that were funded in the Federal Budget.

The hydrogen head start proposal, Queensland has a great deal of interest in this. In fact we've signed memorandum of understanding agreements with Japan, and I think South Korea, Minister. When are we going to have more details on the Federal program, the hydrogen head start program?

ED HUSIC: So my colleague, the Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen, is leading the charge on that work. What we've wanted to flag is obviously the fact that we're dedicating some of these funds to help scale up this work here in the country, and we're going to be working - and a lot of the things that we are doing, we're flagging like for example with my Industry Growth Program, we're going to work with industry to make sure it's fit for purpose for what they need, and similar with the hydrogen head start program. That work will happen as well.

STEVE AUSTIN: All right. This is ABC Radio Brisbane.

Let me ask you about nuclear power.

ED HUSIC: M'hmm.

STEVE AUSTIN: The reason I want to ask you is because today in Parliament House in Canberra there's a Senate Committee, it's the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee is taking evidence from a whole range of people about whether or not there's an argument to remove nuclear energy prohibitions in Australia. Why has the Government you're a member of been so opposed to nuclear power or nuclear energy when we're going for nuclear submarines and nuclear power has zero greenhouse gas emissions?

ED HUSIC: I guess, Steve, you'd separate them out. Let's put - I'm happy to come back in terms of nuclear-powered submarines but let's just go to ...

STEVE AUSTIN: That's not the main - the reason, we're going nuclear for our subs, why don't we do it for electricity as well and provide a core ...

ED HUSIC: And that's what I want to ...

STEVE AUSTIN: ... a core of people who are skilled in the area?

ED HUSIC: Sure. So let me go in terms of for the purpose of energy generation. So we obviously want to be able to generate energy in a much more sustainable way, and the most cost-effective forms of doing that largely are around wind and solar. Being able to get those rolled out, Steve, as quickly as we can and as cost effective as we can, really important.

If you look at how long it would take to scale up and to deploy nuclear technology and the cost of that relative to wind and solar, it means that the economics of it just doesn't stack up and it will take too long for us to do so. And yes, you can point out there are a number of other countries that are doing this. They've built that up over time.

What we're trying to do is reduce emissions, make sure we firm up, and provide the power that people need longer term, and the expectation that we do it in a much more sustainable way, and nuclear just doesn't stack up and to meet our needs I think it was estimated that we'd need 80 of these small modular reactors around different parts of the country and it's going to take time to get that rolled out. Not the least of which you need to get community support and comfort around that. And so the question is well what would be the better bang for the buck for us, and that's why we're looking at wind and solar in the immediate term to try and get that energy we need a sustainable way.

STEVE AUSTIN: I'm intrigued in this because a number of people have been writing articles in some of the trade press saying as the Government, here and around the world for that matter, pushes people to electric vehicles, not only is it a massive change for the entire grid itself but the way people live their lives and recharge their electric vehicles, which tends to be at the same time, that there's going to be this massive, you know, sort of drain on Australia's energy resources and people are starting to become more sceptical whether or not we will be able to even sustain a high proportion of electric vehicles drawing electricity from the power points of people's homes and grids and businesses. In other words, will we have enough electricity to shift to electric vehicles at any decent size or amount?

ED HUSIC: I guess a number of things in terms of responding to that. Well clearly, I mean, as you'd be well aware a lot of electric vehicles, particularly in the city context, are regenerating energy for those batteries, and with one of the highest proportions of roof top solar in the world there's another source of energy that is being made available to recharge those vehicles too.

One of the other things just to let you know that I'm looking at, I sit as the Chair of ...

STEVE AUSTIN: Solar doesn't work at night. Most people sort of drive in the daytime and come home, like tonight ...

ED HUSIC: Correct.

STEVE AUSTIN: ... my listeners are driving home, and they'll plug their electric vehicle in somewhere in the garage or at home. That'll be draining power from the grid when the sun's gone.

ED HUSIC: Just, I mean, so there will be the recharge rate that occurs as the vehicle's operating and the regenerative braking that occurs in those vehicles, so it recharges the batteries.

STEVE AUSTIN: Yep, yep.

ED HUSIC: And people that are at home and that can recharge via solar, that's great as well. That's another source.

Thirdly, I was just going to make this point, Steve, building ministers across the country when we're developing new construction codes, in August last year we've started the process of looking at in new homes, immediately, having the - looking to develop the codes that would see charging infrastructure put in as well in those new homes, not just to charge the vehicles but if we can get them bidirectional to be able to use the charge for those homes out of the vehicles or potentially into grids.

So there are a number of things that people are looking at that can make sure that there is a healthy future or EV and that we can integrate it in terms of sustaining the grid as well. But I'm very conscious too, you're first response will be, "Well that'll be new homes, that'll take ages". Yep, you're right. But we've got to start somewhere and that technology over time will start to get embraced, and we're also in the Budget looking at how we can convert homes and provide loan systems to be able to convert existing homes to much more energy efficient standards, including the type of equipment that they put in.

STEVE AUSTIN: So I guess the thing in my mind, so the Government is basically totally confident that as we transition to electric vehicles there won't be a problem supplying electricity to Australian homes and electric vehicles as we transition to EVs over the next 20 years, you don't think there'll be any brown-outs on the grid?

ED HUSIC: So just to let you know that our, the regulators that inform us, that advise us, like AEMO and the others, have not flagged the type of concerns that you've said. I can understand based on what you're saying to me why you would think along those lines, but our regulators, the people we rely upon for official advice to the best of my knowledge are not saying that that will be an issue. There is a recognition in other parts

STEVE AUSTIN: That's what I'm seeking. So you're being advised that it's not a problem?

ED HUSIC: No, I haven't been alerted to any advice along the lines of what you're saying that would be a concern about being able to roll out EVs in that way. Bearing in mind too, Steve, off the top of my head I think it's around 1.7 million light commercial vehicles that currently exist largely with internal combustion engines in this country. The replacement rate on those vehicles and the use of EVs in that fleet - and part of the reason for my confidence is that isn't going to happen in a timeframe that would create the type of pressures based on the replacement rate of the fleet, I just don't see that necessarily happening.

STEVE AUSTIN: Appreciate you coming on, Minister, thanks so much for your time.

ED HUSIC: Good on you, Steve.

STEVE AUSTIN: Australia's Minister for Industry and Science Ed Husic.

ENDS