PATRICIA KARVELAS: Twelve months ago skyrocketing gas prices sparked by Russia’s invasion of Ukraine led to a government intervention into the east coast gas market to bring down domestic prices. But that intervention alarmed some of our key Asian trading partners, most notably Japan, who’s ambassador took the unusual step of publicly rebuking the Albanese Government.

Two Japanese corporations have just signed on to buy a 10 per cent stake in Woodside’s massive $16.5 billion Scarborough project in Western Australia. That along with the Science Week looming brings us to our next guest, Ed Husic, who’s the Minister for Science and Industry, and he joins us now.

Welcome back to the program.

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: Good morning. How are you?

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I’m great. It’s lovely to have you on the show.

ED HUSIC: Thank you.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Woodside has just announced it’s sold $700 million of a stake of its Scarborough project in WA to two major Japanese investors. Will this restore Japanese confidence in Australia’s gas supply?

ED HUSIC: I think the event in itself shows that that confidence has been maintained. We had a lot of talk obviously last – through the course of the last 12 months about the government’s determination to ensure that we get Australian prices for Australian resources. We want to be a secure and reliable exporter of our resources and support other countries. We said all the time that those contracts would be honoured, maintained and also reflect our deep commitment to ensuring that that’s the behaviour that we engage in internationally. But for supplies that we can access: one, we should be able to secure that supply to meet what Australians want and expect and to do so at pricing that Australians reasonably believe should reflect local conditions. And so I think we got that balance right through the course of the last 12 months.

And if you look at it – in terms of wrapping up on this sort of final point, if you look, for instance, on the trajectory of electricity prices, last year they were up in the second quarter about – these are prices paid for by manufacturers, just to be clear – electricity prices up 60 per cent. They were predicted for the same quarter this year to be up around 33 per cent. They actually went back by a small amount – 1.5 per cent. But I think the big takeout is that the actions we took through our energy price relief plan helped shield manufacturers from some of the worst expected price shocks. So being able to export to meet international demand while also making supply available at a reasonable price locally, I think we got that balance right.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: On another adjacent issue, doctors are concerned about the health impacts of the Middle Arm gas project in the Northern Territory. It will put a billion tonnes of carbon dioxide into the air. Why is the government allocating $1.5 billion in funding for the project?

ED HUSIC: As equity to support a project that also is going to be supporting a lot of other renewable technology and energy deployment as well. And it is really important in terms of not just the economy and in supporting the Northern Territory up there but it’s also important in helping us transition towards a net zero future as well, seeing some of these other technologies emerge, not just hydrogen. It will be the key part of the Sun Cable project, one of the biggest solar projects on the planet that will also supply energy our neighbours when it’s up and running. So, you know, there’s a variety of things that are being achieved by that project.

But I also understand doctors will raise those concerns. It’s important for people in the public space to raise their views and also get people thinking. And I respect that. I mean, I can’t as Science Minister –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You’re the Science Minister, yeah.

ED HUSIC: Yes – no, absolutely. And that’s what I’m absolutely just about to make that point. I understand people will make that point, and we do certainly recognise that climate change does present a massive risk that has been downplayed for years by previous administrations. We are focused on transitioning towards net zero by 2050 and doing everything we can through all arms of government to make that a reality.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. And you are the Minister for Science. These doctors are warning children will be at increased risk of cancer and birth defects if the Middle Arm project goes ahead. What is the government doing to investigate if this is a genuine and real threat? Surely you’re concerned?

ED HUSIC: I again come back to the point: I appreciate the fact that those points are being raised, and we will obviously work through them. We have tried to get the balance right, coming back to that point. There is a need for – and we’ve discussed this in times past, Patricia – there will still be demand for gas while we make the transition. There are some areas where you can’t – the things that we rely on on a daily basis, the production of those materials require gas as part of the feedstock. So that will still be there. But we think a larger share of energy generation where you don’t need it as part of a chemical process can be taken by other things – notably, hydrogen in terms of solar and wind will be the big drivers of energy generation longer term.

And so we are investing heavily in that and trying to speed up that or the accelerated uptake of that form of energy generation. Plus some of the other stuff that I’m doing in my portfolio around battery manufacture.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Sure, but, Minister, with respect, my question was specifically about health and birth defects potentially or cancer. These are the issues that are being raised by the doctors. What is your government doing to investigate if that is a real threat and trying to deal with a potential disaster?

ED HUSIC: I actually did answer that at the start the last question.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You talked about the importance of –

ED HUSIC: No, I said that we would obviously follow that through and look for –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: What will that look like?

ED HUSIC: – well, again, we will take up, look at the concerns that have been raised and follow that through. But there was also a recognition as well we’re trying to deal with a number of things at the same time, not the least of which there is there aren’t – like, there will still be a reliance on gas in some shape or form for processes that produce the materials, the products that we use on a daily basis.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: There’s a plan that’s been unveiled in The Australian newspaper by the Coalition, a coal-to-nuclear transition in the regions and tapping Australia’s world-leading uranium stocks as sort of a centrepiece potentially of the Coalition’s energy policy. Is that the sort of alternative that will cause you a problem politically? Is it gaining traction in your view, that the community wants to see this?

ED HUSIC: I don’t think so. I think going back to my earlier remarks about trying to do everything we can to make the transition to net zero as quickly as we can, the biggest ways in which or the strongest ways in which to do that is to do the uplift on solar and wind. They are the big drivers of renewable energy generation. They can be done at costs that are way lower than current alternatives – coal and nuclear.

The amount of time that would be taken to set up in terms of nuclear, it’s way longer. And also the power, what you get relative to if you compare it to solar and wind, there is no comparison. Nuclear is way more expensive. So the bottom line is why would you have to take years to do something that’s more expensive when we’ve got a pressing need to reduce emissions, make a transition to new ways of producing energy, and this is before we even get to the point of community buy-in about whether or not they’d be willing to have nuclear in their backyard.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah.

ED HUSIC: So, you know, on all those things, I think people will get, yeah, this doesn’t stack up. The Coalition is absolutely obsessed and focused on this bearing in mind they didn’t make any moves on this in the entire time they were in government. And what their recipe is ultimately is more expensive energy that will be delivered way longer down the track. And I don’t think that stacks up.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, moving on to another issue, Labor has declared Gaza and the West Bank as occupied Palestinian territories and called the Israeli settlements illegal. Now, Penny Wong says it’s consistent with the UN Security Council resolutions. But it is out of step with the United States, who are our close ally. Do you consider Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal?

ED HUSIC: I certainly appreciate in this – and I think a lot of the listeners would appreciate – in this issue there will always be different views. You know, you can cite the US and we can also talk about our neighbours the New Zealanders or we can talk about the EU or even the UK, who also take the view that these settlements are illegal and that they are an impediment to being able to reach having two states set up – Israel, Palestine. Israel, already there; the Palestinians wanting to have their own state – and that this will be a stronger pathway to longer term peace in the region.

So we’ve got a number of people in the international community that think that the settlement activity that’s occurring is extraordinarily unhelpful, and we’re also concerned by the escalating violence. So we are trying to be as good members of the international community sending that strong signal.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And is this an issue with the United States? Have they raised this with you?

ED HUSIC: I don’t believe so, but I think the US also gets that people have – countries will have their different views and different positions. So I think there’s some respect around that. You’re not going to get 100 per cent agreement necessarily between ourselves and the US. Does that mean we’re less – you know, that the friendship is weakened? I don’t think so. I think people, you know, take a sort of longer term view about these things.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just finally, Minister, this weekend begins National Science Week. You’re soon to release a report into diversity in STEM. What have you found?

ED HUSIC: I think based on the initial briefings I’ve received from that panel that was set up to look at why have we got these barriers that are preventing people – women, under-represented groups – from being able to take part, apply their talents for the national interest. And we’ve been looking at some of the programs that have been set up in times past and thinking, well, how can we do things differently to boost, you know, participation by women and under-represented groups in STEM. And the interim report based on the advice that I’ve received from the chair is designed to get people focused on why women and under-represented groups won’t stay in science, technology, engineering and maths fields and also use that as a basis to drive longer term change.

We can put a lot of money into STEM programs, but if we’re not changing the underlying issues that will be a problem and will not mean that we get the full value of the investment seen.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, thanks so much for coming on the show.

ED HUSIC: Good on you.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister for Industry and Science, Ed Husic. And you’re listening to RN Breakfast.

ENDS