PATRICIA KARVELAS: Leading tech expert and chair of Elon Musk’s EV company Tesla, Robyn Denholm, has been appointed to lead a review of Australian research and development, and the systems around it. Now, the Minister for Industry and Science, Ed Husic, says the investigation will give us an evidence base to grow our economy and boost our manufacturing sector. He joins me now. Welcome to the program. 

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: Happy Monday morning. Monday, Monday. It’s Monday. Happy Monday morning. How are you? 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You know, I did sleep for 15 hours last night, but that’s – 

ED HUSIC: That’s impressive. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But that’s – do the maths about when I went to bed. Let me ask you this question: why do we need a review into the way we do research and development? And why does the Tesla Chair need to be in charge of this review? 

ED HUSIC: Sure. So on those two things, I think the biggest thing I just want to emphasise at the get-go is this is thinking about the future. This is thinking about where we want our economy in many respects to head. It’s about having faith in our ideas – Australian ideas have not only changed our lives, but they’ve changed and transformed and improved the quality of lives across the planet. And so from our point of view, if you look at the performance of research and development in this country, particularly relative to our competitors in the OECD, over the last 20 years and especially in the last 10 it’s been dropping. That’s not a good thing, so we need to find ways to improve the way we do research and development in this country because it has an impact on future growth, and it is something that can lift us up long term. And having the type of people in to do this review is important. So you asked me about Robyn, but I’m just delighted that Robyn as an Australian who’s had an impact here and overseas in industry is leading this R&D review. And she’ll be joined by former Chief Scientist and former VC of ANU, Ian Chubb, along with Professor Fiona Wood who did remarkable work in commercialising an idea that became spray-on skin. And then finally, Kate Cornick, who has done a lot of work with early-stage innovators. We want to be able to bring industry and academia together to think about, well, what are the answers we need to have an evidence-based pathway for lifting up R&D. Really important for the future of our country. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And so, was Robyn Denholm who, you know, works at Tesla chosen because of the Australian connection or was actually the link to Tesla and Elon Musk part of the consideration? 

ED HUSIC: No, I think if I may emphasise, I guess, Robyn’s involvement in a company that recognises the value of R&D and improving the way to get things done and to be able to create an edge, and particularly if you look at what Tesla has done, to be able to turn an idea into reality at a time where there are a lot of doubters over a long period of time, very important. But also as Chief Operating Officer of Telstra, having seen the way in which technology will transform the fortunes of businesses and industries, it’s important to get that know-how plugged into a review like this. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And is building a good relationship with Elon Musk at all part of your thinking? Just more broadly, given he has an enormous amount of power just generally given all of his companies, but also, of course, in the US administration now. 

ED HUSIC: So as a government we’ve been looking at the performance of the country on R&D and thinking about how we address that. I didn’t want us to simply chuck money at a problem; I wanted us to think deeply, have an evidence base in which we improve our R&D performance. As I said, really important for the future of the country. You know, the type of people that we’ve got involved we’ve been thinking about for quite some time and what they bring to the table. So that’s really driven – 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Like before the election win is what you’re saying? 

ED HUSIC: Yeah, I’ve been sort of – I know this will come to you as a total shock, Patricia, but I’ve sort of been hectoring about this for quite some time and working away on it. So, you know, there’s a long runway to these things. And we are in a position where we can get this moving, and I think it’s – as I said, it’s really important what the shape of our economy is into the long term. We’re talking a lot about a Future Made in Australia, what that means in terms of rebuilding manufacturing capability. We have had an instance where a lot of overseas multinationals have dropped their investment in R&D, and now the big players are Australian multinationals – Atlassian in tech, Cochlear in medical, for example, and advanced manufacturing, Fortescue in mining, and also in medical CSL. So we’ve got big firms that are devoting a lot of time to R&D. We have SMEs that are starting to increase and ramp up. But we’ve got to be able to do more. That’s the challenge. The answer to the question – I’ll end on this point – to what’s next for the Australian economy, that answer can be delivered by having a strong R&D base, and that’s what we’ve got to do for the long-term good of the country. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Can’t we do some of it without a review? I mean, I don’t mean to be impolite, but reviews take some time. Some things are obvious, aren’t they? 

ED HUSIC: On R&D, when you look at the slide over the last in particular 10 years, if you take into account where things have gone, it’s not, as I said a few moments ago, an answer for us to just throw money at the problem. R&D itself is made up by a lot of – like, if you look at the composition, there’s a lot of it done by our universities that are doing much better than the OECD average. And there’s also business expenditure on R&D and government. Government is starting to lift largely as a result of thinking ahead on defence and energy generation. But we can do more. Business, we need to do a lot more there. And instead of pointing fingers at people and going for the quickest, lowest hanging fruit that we can reach for in here and throwing a lot of money and hoping it works, I want us to be able to say, “Okay, looking at the entire way in which we do R&D, what is working and what isn’t, and what have we got to start scratching out of the system and what do we ramp up in terms of investment and focus?” There are no quick fixes on this, and that’s why – to answer your question in a very, very long way – I just don’t think throwing money at this problem is the way to go. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I just want to move on to a couple of other issues, if I can, while I’ve got you, Minister. 

ED HUSIC: Mmm-hmm. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Redbridge ran a poll yesterday saying more than a third of Australians have delayed medical treatment due to cost pressures. There were other results, too, and there’s generally – I mean, I’ve written a story today based on ANU research showing that dissatisfaction with the government is at the same level it was when Scott Morrison was Prime Minister and, of course, we know how that election went for him before the last election. How concerned are you that there will be a public backlash against Labor? 

ED HUSIC: Well, we’ve been very focused on the fact that understanding the type of circumstances people are in, the weight that’s been put on people’s household budgets through the cost-of-living crisis, what can we as government do to help. And we’ve gone through quite a lot of things and been very energetic in this space, in making sure that we can help in a lot of ways. You started the question referencing medical. I particularly as a Western Sydney MP was concerned at what the future of bulk-billing was coming into government. And as a government we’ve really focused in particular the work of Health Minister Butler in being able to back bulk-billing in so people don’t have to pay and don’t have to make the kind of decisions that were referenced earlier in your question about when they get medical help, making it a lot more accessible through our Urgent Care clinics. Really important. So, I mean, there will not be one single path to be able to ease the weight of that cost-of-living pressure. That’s why we’ve worked across a range of things. But appreciate absolutely there will be people that are feeling it that will express their views, and we’ve just got to keep working on it as a government. And I think across a range of areas we have. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: What have they told you in our own electorate? Are they cranky? 

ED HUSIC: I think there’s a lot of – well, if you look at, you know, people do get surprised, they go to a supermarket. They’ve seen the way that prices have been there and that’s why we’ve worked in terms of putting pressure on, in particular, some of the major, you know, firms in this area, saying they’ve got to do better on price. We’ve looked to increase the power of the ACCC in this arena, and you’ve looked at the Food and Grocery Code of Conduct and the work that we did last week through the Parliament on that front. That’s an area. Housing affordability obviously gets raised by people in my area and across the country. And that’s why we’ve got to be able to build more homes and get cracking on that, and that’s what we’ve been doing, in spite of, up until the last minute, a lot of intransigence and particularly negativity from the Coalition where we had to get laws through the parliament in the absence of their support. So there’s work there. Medical, for example, is another issue. It’s one of the big things – for me as a local MP, in particular, in the entire time I’ve been MP in my Western Sydney seat of Chifley, always championed more access to affordable health care. And I’ve got to say, it’s one of the things I’m really proud of in being part of this government is how far we’ve pushed. We haven’t solved it all, by the way. I’m not saying that – there’s no mission accomplished sign falling at the background of this interview, but certainly we have invested a lot to make sure bulk-billing and access to affordable health care is improved, because that’s really important to save the lives of so many Australians. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: One of the other issues, of course, is a backlash in relation to the war in Gaza. And we’ve talked about this before. In the US election, we saw in the state of Michigan, for instance, there were many people of Arab background, Muslim voters, who were concerned. Do you expect that same backlash here? Are you prepared for it? 

ED HUSIC: Well, I certainly think that there will be people – there have been people for quite some time – that have taken a particularly strong view about whether or not ourselves or the rest of the world, for that matter, have reacted as strongly as they could on seeing the loss of so much innocent life in Gaza and, in particular, so many innocent people and especially mothers and children, women and children, who have been killed as a result of the actions by the Israeli government in Gaza. And then obviously the spread to Lebanon. And so there is – there will be strong feelings about that. But, again, to be able to just say definitively this will definitely be the case, I think there’s a mix of feelings out there talking with people. But, you know, again, people when they go to the ballot box, a mix of different issues will be at play. This will for some people be a big issue, but as a government you can see through the course of the 12 months, particularly our advocacy within the UN and the international community, the way we’ve worked with others, particularly around ceasefire, the most recent efforts we’ve made in terms of Palestinian sovereignty, which I think is important at a time where there are concerns around displacement, being able to fast track sovereignty for Palestinians, very important. And I think people can see through the volume of work that we have done as a government, particularly in the last 12 months, that, you know, we are trying to make sure that Australia’s voice is heard in the international arena on this issue. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, thank you so much for joining us. 

ED HUSIC: Pleasure to be with you. 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister for Industry and Science, Ed Husic, joining me on a Monday morning.