OLIVER PETERSON: A little Friday afternoon treat for us. The Industry and Science Minister Ed Husic is here in Perth, it’s good to see you.

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: Good seeing you.

OLIVER PETERSON: Well Minister, you've just arrived back from Indonesia and Singapore. What were you doing there?

ED HUSIC: Well, we've got a lot we can work together on around - in particular levering off our critical minerals, and seeing what we can do with those, particularly for the demand on batteries. Indonesians - you might remember that the Indonesian President was out in early July, met with our Prime Minister and we agreed we needed to get moving on this. So, a few weeks after that meeting, I was up there in Indonesia talking with a number of their Ministers about what we can do together on that. We have, as people well know, some of the best stores of critical minerals and rare earths on the planet. The main – really the next step for us, in terms of our economy, is value add and we've got this huge demand for batteries, not just for cars, but for homes and businesses and industry, and so how we can work together on that. They have massive stores of nickel as well, how we can work together, that means a lot for reducing emissions, increasing jobs.

OLIVER PETERSON: And is that opportunity there to bring nickel into Australia to then manufacture parts or batteries here?

ED HUSIC: Again, it's about seeing what we can do in terms of - we've got to scale up processing, they want to do the same. That's one of the key steps towards battery manufacture. And so, working together, and particularly in developing some of the technology around that together too, is really important. And I'm hoping in a few months time to take our chief scientist to meet with some of their science and researchers about how we can work together as well. So, it's looking at all those types of things, the way we can work together. And to be frank with you, you can talk a lot about being good friends, but working together really deepens that relationship and we've got to move beyond the talk and build stronger relationships. This is a huge economy and on the other side, in other areas of my portfolio, particularly around technology, where we can work together and form businesses, cross border businesses, and I saw some of them in Jakarta, this will be huge. They have 200 million active internet users, so the prospect of huge digital trades there as well.

OLIVER PETERSON: When I ask about manufacturing, BHP is now saying these same job same pay laws are going to mean Australia risks its mining edge. Do you form a similar view of BHP’s?

ED HUSIC: We're trying to close down some labour hire loopholes and make sure people get a better deal. Every time you propose laws in this space, there will be someone that steps forward and says that this will be the ruination of things. Doesn't always end in that way. We don't think it will. We think it is a part of people wanting that if they're performing similar work, that they're paid similarly, and that it's not undercutting conditions. And getting that balance right is important.

OLIVER PETERSON: Do you think there are many companies rorting the system?

ED HUSIC: No, look, I don't think it is necessarily about rorting the system at all. I don't characterise it in that way and I don't think we should look at it that way. But you do understand that from time to time you bring people in through a labour hire arrangement to perform short term work, but if you're working alongside each other for an extended period of time and you're performing that work, in particular for labour hire firms, you want to ensure there's a bit of fairness there. And closing some of these loopholes is a big deal.

OLIVER PETERSON: Obviously, industrial relations has been a major issue for the week. I know there will probably be more when Parliament resumes next week, but there is a bit of talk as well about the casual workers becoming permanent workers and how that changes. Will there be more consultation before you hit the Parliament floors of Canberra next week?

ED HUSIC: I think we are very much open to working with all part - look to make these things work, I think this is the way to best put it, these things work best if we work with people early on, you're not going to get entire agreement, I don't think. There'll always be someone that wanted something perfectly or wanted something way better. You're trying to get agreement across a range of people that have different views. And certainly, in terms of Tony Burke, the relevant Minister, he is very committed to being able to listen to different people about how we make that work. And on the casual side, it's about for people that have worked in a casual arrangement, for yonks, being able to have the option to go into a permanent role. Some people will opt to stay casual because it suits their arrangements, their lifestyle, et cetera, and we want to be able to leave that option. Clearly that will be open. But for a lot of people who feel like they like the security of permanent work and they've worked as a casual for a very long period of time, seems like a right thing to do.

OLIVER PETERSON: My guest is the Industry and Science Minister, Ed Husic, who has just returned from trips in Indonesia and Singapore. Was it pretty humid there?

ED HUSIC: It's the dry season up there so it's a little bit drier than usual. I was there in Jakarta for two days and then Singapore for two days and figured if I was over there, I always like the chance of coming over and visiting Perth and also seeing some of the firms that got mentioned in Jakarta, Critical Minerals that are operating out here in South Perth. And so I was there with Swan MP, Zaneta Mascarenhas, we were out visiting one that's looking at much more environmentally friendly ways of processing critical minerals, and they're doing some R&D in that space. So, over here, I also caught up with Patrick Gorman and seeing some stuff in the robotics space. You've got some really clever people operating out of Spacecubed in Perth, and we do need to automate, in places particularly where they're going to face skill shortages for ages and businesses that need that work. And if we want to get an advanced manufacturing edge, you've got some really clever people here in Perth that have put some submissions forward to a National Robotics Strategy I'm developing. And they're working with rail and mining. We've got some of the best field robotics in the planet. People don't realise how good Australia is in robotics. We've now got to extend that in advanced manufacturing and to also deal with some of the skill shortages where it's highly unlikely you'll get people going back in there and doing the work, given the competition for other jobs that they can do and the wages they can get elsewhere.

OLIVER PETERSON: You shifted the priorities into what you're just discussing now. I want to get to AI in a moment, but away from space, there was quite a concentration in the dying days of the former government to look towards the space industry as being a big part of the future. Why are you scaling that back?

ED HUSIC: Okay, so we inherited a big budget deficit. We have to identify savings. I know that everyone loves to, and there are a lot of Ministers that love to be able to announce billion-dollar programs. And when you have to make the cut, they're never there. But in our case, what the Morrison government did, right at the last breaths of their government, they announced this massive program that they wanted to do. They hadn't signed any contracts, they hadn't opened up tenders even to get there, you have to make the call. We are investing in manufacturing capability, I think people know how committed we are. But on that program, where there hadn't been any work done and have been announced to no doubt get a bit of beneficial coverage for them, we have to make the saving and I have to make the tough call. I know people won't like it. I appreciate that. But sometimes in these roles you’ve got to make the call to find the savings. And it's either you cut something where nothing's been done and the money's been allocated, or you cut in other areas that run counter to what we're trying to do on manufacturing. And I just had to make that call in that way.

OLIVER PETERSON: Let's talk about AI, because this artificial intelligence is something we're all going to have to grapple with more and more every single year. Have we got our heads around how this is going to change the way that we lead our lives, Minister? Because sometimes it all seems just almost better off not knowing about artificial intelligence.

ED HUSIC: Yeah. Well, the term itself, as much as we are surprised about how much things have developed, the first time artificial intelligence was expressed as a term was in the 50s, and so the work on that's been done for years. But what we've seen is this huge development, leaps and bounds, particularly what's come about, as people will know now, ChatGPT, in late last year. And that brand levers off what's called generative AI, that can do prediction capabilities way better. It can do things now that people didn't think AI could do. But people do appreciate governments need to get the balance right. They know that AI is in our lives. Anyone who's carrying around a mobile phone, there's so much AI there. In our workplaces it's being used in ways you may not necessarily appreciate, but to help speed up, do things. Some of the dull work, crunching through data, being able to do it accurately and quickly is really important for workplaces and to drive a lot of machinery as well. Very important. So, people want to get the balance right between the way it can work for us, but that it doesn't get ahead of itself in the way that it operates. To be able to get that risk managed properly is really important. That's what we're out consulting about with people right now. In fact, we've had so much interest, I've had to extend consultation.

OLIVER PETERSON: I’m sure, how do you find trying to get your head around it?

ED HUSIC: Well, I've spent years in this space listening to people work on this. We got some really clever people again in this country. We don't necessarily celebrate it as much. It seems like it's not part of our nature to celebrate that, but they're doing some really good work and it is - it's a pretty complex area, but it's something I think Parliamentarians, businesses, others have to get their head around to make sure we get the laws right. I think the way people will go to something that makes their life easier, if there's a tool around that helps them, they'll use it. And people are using things like ChatGPT to make their job, or their work, or their study, easier. But we've got to do it in a way that everyone thinks is fair and right, and fair dinkum. And that's what we're trying to do in getting the legal framework, modern laws for modern tech.

OLIVER PETERSON: And I imagine as well, the conversations you'd have with your colleague Jason Clare, the Education Minister, about the future employment opportunities of Australians and those who are currently going through the school process and the curriculum, because the way that our children are taught is going to change.

ED HUSIC: Yeah, but people have been worried about the role of technology in classrooms, and whether or not it'll dumb down people, since the debates around whether or not it was right to have a calculator at school.

OLIVER PETERSON: That's true.

ED HUSIC: So, we're always concerned about that, and I think we do need to get that right. And we also want to make sure people aren't using generative AI to produce work and claim it's theirs when someone else has done it. I was actually at Australian Chamber of Commerce in Singapore yesterday and the person who was grilling me with the questions was saying that their child had used some ChatGPT to prepare to answer some homework. And when she'd checked it out, she'd gone, you haven't done this, it was both the quality, and how complex it was, gave it away. So, we are holding a parliamentary inquiry looking at how to stamp out some of that and be upfront about it. But some of this stuff can be used in ways to create what they call deep fakes. You look at it and you think this is a legit piece of video with someone saying something outrageous, and it's been created using AI. Now, if that influences the way that governments make decisions because the public is outraged of what they saw before them and they thought was real, those type of things for disinformation, as it's referred to, pretty serious. And we've got to have some sort of legal response or framework to manage that too. And the broader thing, finally, on jobs, yeah we need to think ahead about how technology is used. If it has an impact on jobs, that's something that we obviously have to think deeply about. But a lot of the way businesses use technology now, I've been going around to manufacturers, for example, where they've used automation in a way that they've increased automation and increased the number of people employed.

OLIVER PETERSON: Right.

ED HUSIC: But if you rush in this stuff and it forces people to lose their jobs because it hasn't been thought through by business. I'm not saying all businesses are like this.

OLIVER PETERSON: No.

ED HUSIC: But it is a point where you got to think deeply about how you bring technology in and it has an impact on people's jobs. And again, I think this is a good thing about having these type of processes and open discussion about it.

OLIVER PETERSON: Yeah, I think it's really important. And I know this might seem like an odd example but watching the new Indiana Jones movie on Wednesday night with Harrison Ford, they make him look younger in the first scenes and you see how far AI has come. But still, you know, that's not Harrison Ford today, that's a computerised version of Harrison Ford.

ED HUSIC: But I'd like AI to be used in my selfies to make me look younger. But actually, that point that you raised, I'm grateful you raised it. There's this strike that's happening with actors and writers in the US at the moment. And one of the elements is whether or not the images that are taken and then used by, and apply AI, in part of movies or shows. How do actors and others get paid for that? That is the way that technology is moving in, the way in which we work and the way that we get our incomes. And people are thinking, well, how will you pay me if you use my face in that way? And again, that's stuff that governments have got to - and businesses - have got to get their heads around.

OLIVER PETERSON: Yeah, it's really interesting. Are you starting to polish up the shoes? Ready to hit the pavement? We're going to an election sooner than we all thought.

ED HUSIC: I think people are getting bit excited about things. I don't need to, but I guess it's Friday.

OLIVER PETERSON: Prime Minister said it won't be before Christmas. He said it won't be before Christmas. But if you don't get the Greens and the crossbench support on the housing bill, you got the double disillusion trigger.

ED HUSIC: Can I just emphasise how serious we are taking the need to get more homes built, particularly affordable ones. People appreciate and the general public, they look at housing costs, they see its impact. What we are trying to do is build more affordable homes and that the Housing Australia Future Fund is designed to do that. Senator Tammy Tyrrell said today, to both the Greens and the Opposition, you can't say you want to build more homes by voting against it, that won’t be building more homes. And so, what we are saying is, based in the last sitting of Parliament, the Coalition and the Greens teamed up to defer the bill, voting on the bill till October. And we're saying, forget that. We are going to put this bill, we're going to take it back through the House of Representatives and put it again. We need to get these homes built and we are focusing the minds of the Coalition and the Greens to get this done. Stop with the politics. If you're fair dinkum about seeing more affordable homes being built, don't be looking for the perfect, let's get this done and get moving.

OLIVER PETERSON: Don't want to go to an election yet?

ED HUSIC: I don't think there's an interest in doing that. We've got a lot of things that we need to get done. I don't think that's the intention, but this is very much about focusing, particularly the Coalition teaming up with the Greens to stop more affordable homes being built. That's what they've got to think about and that's what - we were elected to get this done, we want to get this done.

OLIVER PETERSON: Ed Husic, thanks for stopping by the 6PR studios today.

ED HUSIC: Thanks.