DEBORAH KNIGHT: Yeah, another big week in federal politics, and joining us as always Ed Husic, the Minister for Industry and Science, and Angus Taylor, the shadow Treasurer. Fellas, welcome to you both. And before we get into things, Angus, I know you’ve been pedalling your way through regional New South Wales for the annual Pollie Pedal. Where are you at the moment? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: In Coolamon not far from Wagga, Deb. In the rain. It’s pouring with rain here. We’ve had some pretty wet days and windy days and big hills. A lot of pain. But raising money for a great cause – Soldier On, our veterans. Riding a thousand kilometres. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: A bit sore in the saddle? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: A little bit sore in the saddle, that’s right. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: I bet. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: But two days to go, so we’re getting there. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Yeah. Well, Soldier On. If you want to donate, I’ll give the website – soldieron.org.au/polliepedal2022. Terrific cause. And I’m so pleased that you guys are back doing this again, because obviously Covid got in the way. But it’s a wonderful cause and it’s great – well, not so good to see you guys in the lycra, but great to see you out there raising money for a good cause, Angus, which is terrific. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Yeah, thank you 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Now, tax cuts obviously are the big issue facing your government right now, Ed, the stage 3 tax cuts. Is the government going to ditch them? 

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: Our position hasn’t changed. We’ve been saying that all week. I mean, the thing that has happened is the Treasurer has rightly pointed out, Jim Chalmers, some of the global economic conditions we’re facing, pretty serious if you look at what’s happening in the US or Europe, China’s not picking up the way it was expected and obviously they have a big impact on the world economy. Energy prices, particularly gas, being affected by what’s happening between Russia and Ukraine, which is why I made myself a bit of a pain with the gas companies over trying to ensure that our manufacturers and households get a better deal. And we’re also lumbered with, you know, the Coalition’s trillion dollars in debt. So, there’s a lot of stuff that we have to deal with – 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Well, if all that’s happening, you should be scrapping them, shouldn’t you? 

ED HUSIC: Well, as I said, our position has not changed. Repeat. But it is important to recognise, like, we’ve got a tough budget coming up. We are trying to cut back the waste in terms of what existed under the Coalition and bring in a budget that’s responsible. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: So, rolled gold guarantee then, that election promise that there’ll be no changes to the stage 3 tax cuts, they’ll be brought in as promised? 

ED HUSIC: I come back to my point – our position hasn’t changed [in the] budget. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Angus, you’ve come out swinging saying they’ve opened the door to if not cutting and scrapping these tax cuts to at least wind them back. And you say that it will rob middle-income earners here. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Exactly right. I mean, look, Labor’s looking for any excuse to do this. Any excuse whatsoever. We’ve been going through tough times for a few years now. There’s a re-invention of history going on with what Labor is saying and Jim Chalmers is saying and what Ed’s saying. But the reality is we have a budget that’s very strong. Labor’s inherited an extremely strong economy, and this is about tax breaks for middle-income earners, Deb – for teachers, for tradies, for hairdressers. You know, a hairdresser earning $60,000 a year will lose around $400 every year if these legislated tax cuts don’t go ahead. Labor’s looking for an excuse. They always want to spend more. You know, when they start thinking they’re going to run out of money they start spending your money. And – 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: But if the economy is so strong, why then is the Reserve Bank raising interest rates to try to battle soaring inflation? And we do have a slowdown on the global economic front. And surely for the economic situation changes – which it has – the government should do what’s best for the economy and the country. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, the economy is going gangbusters. In the short term, we have to deal with inflation and interest rate pressures, absolutely. And in the medium term, we want pro-growth policies so we can have a strong economy, we can have strong services. And when the economy is strong people do pay taxes under our current system and even with these tax breaks. So, you know, these things are completely consistent. 

But the worst thing of all here, Deb, is that Labor went to an election with a very clear commitment, unambiguous commitment. We know they didn’t like it, but they still made the commitment. And they’re talking now – Katy Gallagher, the Finance Minister, is open to changing those taxes. She said it this week. They need to lock them in and say they will not change it. We’re only hearing from Ed that the position hasn’t changed. He’s not saying rolled gold that they will not change this, they will stick with it. That’s what they need to say, and Albanese needs to say it from the top. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Well, it’s not as though Labor’s the only party guilty of breaking election promises. We know that both sides of the aisle have done that in the past. 

But, Ed, you’ve heard former RBA Governor Bernie Fraser out too saying that Labor should scrap the tax cuts so you can pay for your planned spending, even suggesting re-introducing carbon and mining taxes and removing housing tax breaks. Are those sort of policies on the table here? 

ED HUSIC: Look, they are not. We’ve been quite clear about things like the carbon tax and we also went into the election very clear on things like, for example, you know, changes to housing, the type of things that Bernie Fraser mentioned around negative gearing. You know, we’ve been upfront about that. And, you know, again, I just come back to the point – our position hasn’t changed on tax cuts. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: So, if nothing’s changing, why then is the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, been opening the door and signalling the fact that we are seeing economic pressures on a global scale, and we might have to have a rethink? He’s been the one saying these things. 

ED HUSIC: I think the concern has been that as much as Angus tried to suggest that these pressures have been around for a while, they’ve definitely deteriorated, and if you look at what’s happening in the US where, you know, the suggestion is that they’re, very close – hopefully, it won’t happen to them – hitting a recession, you know, the economy is strong. We want it to be stronger, obviously, but it is – inflation is affected by in particular supply-side challenges that people know about themselves and the skills shortages issues that dragged on for a decade have created problems too. 

So, you’ve got to be upfront about that leading into the budget as well. We’ve sought to be very upfront with people about the state of the economy and why we’re making sure that we can bring in a budget that does the right thing in terms of cutting back wasteful spending but also frees us up to do the things we think are important, like, for example, maybe, what we’ve announced just a few weeks ago, to cut – not announced, but we put through the parliament – our plan to cut medicines for the first time in 75 years, cutting them by 30 per cent, which these are big things for people as well out in the community. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: So, Angus, if you were the Treasurer, not shadow Treasurer right now, and you saw the economic situation changing, would you be considering making changes to these promised tax cuts if, if not scrapping them, winding them back? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, Deb. Look, we’ve had a – we have a budget right now that has been in cumulative surplus since November. Now, remember Victoria and New South Wales opened in October. This is an extraordinary situation. We’ve got amongst the strongest of positions in the world right now. And what we need in the short term is a responsible budget, not one that ups the spending. We don’t need that, just a responsible, sensible budget. And then pro-growth policies over the medium term. 2024 is when these tax cuts come in; it’s perfect timing. And take away some of those pressures on Australian households. 

That’s the right thing to do. And Labor needs to commit to that from the top. From the top. And stop opening up the door to breaking an election promise that they made. You know, we fought the 2019 election over tax. Labor didn’t want to fight this election over tax, so they matched us and now they’re talking about walking away. They need to lock in and hold to these tax cuts. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: We’ll see what’s unveiled in the upcoming federal budget. Now the other issue I want to look at – 

ED HUSIC: Sorry, I just want to make a point. The budget might be going – you know, might be in a stronger position, but it’s important to note we’re a trillion dollars in debt under the Coalition. That is – 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Hang on, Ed – 

ED HUSIC: We have to start to repair. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: You can’t even remember how much debt you left us. You can’t even remember the $50 billion deficit that you left us when we came into government. And you can’t, of course, remember the pandemic. Let’s be clear about this. But we have a budget surplus right now. 

ED HUSIC: The budget was in deficit before the pandemic. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: There is a surplus running right now. 

ED HUSIC: The budget was in deficit before the pandemic. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: And, Ed – 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: All right, we’ll see what is unveiled in the budget. And I’ll note, Ed, that there still has not been a rolled gold guarantee from the federal Treasurer. So, we’ll wait and see what comes up in the budget. 

Now we found out early this week about plans to bring the wives and children of ISIS fighters who are currently in Syria, detained in Syria, back to Australia. The independent MP for Fowler, Dai Le, has spoken out saying that her community, which does have a significant Syrian refugee population, is offended by this and these moves should not go ahead. Ed, do you agree with Dai Le? 

ED HUSIC: I think – well, the biggest thing to start with is to recognise we’ve got to be very careful it’s an ongoing discussion, decisions are still being made in line with national security advice. And our first consideration is obviously national security and the safety of Australians. There are Australian citizens and children growing up in very difficult, traumatic circumstances overseas. And it’s also been a long-running issue. I mean, this has been raised by the Trump administration to the Coalition when they were in government about the need that they could recognise once IS was beaten that they could – that there were these people that were there needed to be taken out as a result of the collapse in terms of what we were seeing – 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: But do you recognise the concerns that have been raised by Dai Le? 

ED HUSIC: And I think if you look at the article where that was ventilated in, it was – even the reporter had suggested that there have been no plans to move people into Fairfield. And I think we’ve got a lot of people that are jumping up trying to make a bit of media noise on this when this is having to be something that’s sensitively dealt with and, in particular, from a national security perspective. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Well, we know that ASIO has assessed the Australian women and children. Angus, should we be trusting our top security agency here? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, first of all, the protection and safety of Australians must come first, Deb. That is absolutely paramount here. There are a lot of questions that have to be answered on this. Where are these people going to go? What are the people around them in that local community where they go going to know about it? What protections are going to be in place to make sure if it turns out that one of them has been radicalised that this is going to be dealt with appropriately? So, all of these questions really do need to be answered. It’s a very difficult issue, I recognise that. But at the end of the day the safety of Australians must come first. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: All right. Now, we’ve got the country’s skills ministers meeting today to look at how we can manage the crippling worker shortage affecting pretty much every industry in the country. How do we fix it? Because it’s such a big problem, and we’ve even got McDonald’s of all places – they usually never have to advertise – and they’re doing a big recruitment drive right now. How do you fix the job shortage, Angus? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, I noticed just before I came on, Deb, you were talking about older Australians coming into work and ageism. We think that older Australians can offer a lot more. And that’s why we proposed a doubling of the work bonus for older Australians, for pensioners and for veterans – and I’m supporting veterans this week. Right now, they lose their pension if they do above a certain amount of work. We want to double that. We’ve got a half-baked version of that from Labor, which is temporary. 

But now is the time to get someone who’s aged in their late 60s who’s still healthy. A number of people I’m riding with this week are in their late 60s and riding like a 40-year-old. So these are people who can work hard, they’ve got lots to offer, and we should be giving them every incentive to work. 

I’m out here in the farming areas. They’ve got a big crop coming up, the most expensive in Australian history, and they’re deeply concerned about labour shortages. We need every Australian we can helping out. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: And, as I said to you in the past, you should have brought that policy in during the election – you would have won some votes off the back of it if you did. But, Ed, another big factor is the number of skilled Australians who leave the country to pursue opportunities, especially in the STEM sector, so within your portfolio. You’ve got to get on top of that, too, don’t you? 

ED HUSIC: Before I get to that I want to know these 60-year-olds who ride like 40-year-olds. These are human people. Name them, Taylor. Name them. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Tony Abbott is one of them. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Yes. 

ED HUSIC: Okay, I walked straight into that one. That’s fair enough, Angus. Just, yeah, I mean – look, you know, the skill shortages themselves need to be dealt with in a number of different ways. One is obviously training people up. That was the whole big focus of the Jobs and Skills Summit early last month to start that process of what do we do to mobilise TAFE, unis and other spots to make that happen. In a degree of bipartisanship I agree absolutely with Angus. And I was really upset when, Deb, you were reading that message out from John about the way he was treated as a 49-year-old, and that has not gone away. It’s been a long-running issue and at a time where we do need to call up the skills of Australians all corners of the community, we can’t afford to have job snobs in the face of some employers who are knocking back experience. We’ve got to deal with that. 

And the other thing too – at the heart of your question – is to make sure we’ve got an environment that encourages, particularly in the digital and tech sector where tech plays such a big role across businesses, that people feel like the opportunities are here and that they’re not – they don’t feel like the back has been turned on them and that they’ve got to go somewhere else to make their fortune or get experience. There’s a lot of work we can do right now. And I think we’ve got to get people to work and open up those opportunities. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Yeah, we need to keep it here in Australia. That is for sure. Now, we want to end on this: the Bureau of Statistics has released info today on how we as Aussies spend our time. And what I’d like to know from you is not how you spend your time but how you waste your time, your preferred form of procrastination. Are you a TikTok scroller? Are you on the exercise bike, Angus, or are you bouncing the basketball, Ed? What is the thing you do that just you’re procrastinating away? Angus? 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Well, normally it would be riding a bike, Deb, but at the moment with pouring rain here in Coolamon we’re procrastinating in a café drinking coffee waiting before we ride the bike. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Well, that’s understandable. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: So that’s a good form of procrastination under the circumstances. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Well, fair enough too. How about you, Ed? 

ED HUSIC: I think all these streaming services have something to answer for. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Yes, yes. 

ED HUSIC: All this binge-watching that they’re encouraging happening. So, sometimes it’s good to go back and have a look at those. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Yes. 

ED HUSIC: I’m not proud of some of the things I’ve watched, like going back to the old episodes of the A-Team. But, you know, I’ve been upfront with you before, Deb and Angus; I’ll continue to do so. I’m committed to embarrassing myself on your show. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Look, we embrace it. We thank you for it. Fellas, good to talk. 

ED HUSIC: You shouldn’t be encouraging it, no. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Well, you know, you walk into the door, I open it and you walk right through. Good luck with the rest of the Pollie Pedal, Angus, and terrific again raising money for Soldier On, a really terrific cause. 

ED HUSIC: Hear, hear. 

ANGUS TAYLOR: Thanks, Ed. Thanks, Deb. 

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Good on you. Angus Taylor and Ed Husic.

ENDS