ANDREW CLENNELL: All right, joining me live in the studio is Industry and Science Minister Ed Husic. Thanks so much for your time, Ed Husic, now, you've spoken before, including on this program, about your concerns about the Israel-Palestine conflict. What do you think of the way Israel's handled this latest incident involving Zomi Franckom?

ED HUSIC, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SCIENCE: In terms of Zomi, she dedicated herself to help the lives of others and she shouldn't have lost her life in pursuit of that ambition. And this has clearly deeply resonated in a number of countries where, in particular, seven aid workers lost their lives in one incident. But unfortunately, Zomi joins nearly 200 humanitarian workers who've lost their lives in this conflict. This is not a small thing because it goes to the heart of concerns that have persisted around observance of international humanitarian law. You cannot target humanitarian workers, you cannot target journalists, you cannot target schools, hospitals, and you've got a responsibility under international humanitarian law to distinguish clearly between combatants and civilians and protect civilians.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Well, in this instance, do you accept it was accidental or?

ED HUSIC: I think this reflects very seriously it would be, if I may say, it would be the easiest route to say, to use the bad apples defence here. That it was a couple of people that operated outside of policy. All you've had at this point is two people stood down and a general reprimanded, as you've indicated. I believe this reflects a systematic failure within the Israeli government to genuinely commit to the observance of international humanitarian law. That's why you've seen 33,000 Palestinians killed, 14,500 which are children, and 77,000 injured, and then on top of that, 200 aid workers, 100 journalists. I mean, this comes down to a failure by the Israeli government to observe international law distinguishing between combatant and civilian.

ANDREW CLENNELL: But is it carelessness or are you suggesting it's deliberate?

ED HUSIC: I am saying that the failure to have systems in place and to have command responsibility, dictating clearly that civilians should not be threatened or jeopardised, their lives jeopardised. This is a systematic problem or systemic problem within the way in which the Israeli government has conducted these operations in Gaza. And that's why you have seen so many Palestinians killed, and that is an issue that needs to be confronted. And you can tell that the international community has basically determined that Israel has undertaken those failings. It's why, I mean, this has not been coincidence. For instance, over the last 24, 48 hours that you've seen Israel open up three of its seven entry points to allow for the flow of humanitarian aid. And that's largely because I would say the Biden administration has been putting pressure on the Israeli government to recognise its obligations.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Penny Wong's announcement, the special adviser to investigate the killings. I mean, do you have any indication of who this might be and how much can they investigate without Israeli government cooperation anyway?

ED HUSIC: Well, I think the important point is this is a very big step by our government. We want Australians to have the confidence that we get to the bottom of what's happened. So, there's full transparency and ultimately full accountability for what's gone on here. I think on, from my own perspective, there hasn't been the level of accountability by any stretch. I don't think you could say that seven aid workers losing their lives in the way that they did demonstrates that. And so, appointing the special adviser, is very important. But to answer your question as well, I think the Foreign Minister will make that, and Defence Minister who wrote to their counterparts in Israel advising this, they'll make the announcement about who that person is. But it is our determination.

ANDREW CLENNELL: When is that announcement likely?

ED HUSIC: That will be in their hands. It signals our determination, as I said, full transparency, full accountability.

ANDREW CLENNELL: All right. The PM and Foreign Minister have hardened their language now when it comes to where this conflict is going. Sounds like the PM did with Benjamin Netanyahu on the phone. What hopes do you have of a ceasefire and what happens in the aftermath of that?

ED HUSIC: Well, the international community, and we have joined in the international community since December voting in the UN with 152 other countries calling for a ceasefire and continually making that point. And I think there has to be a ceasefire. There has to be the release of hostages by Hamas as well, to make this durable. And so our government has spoken up on those matters increasingly, as you've seen since December. I think there's another element to this as well. The other element is, where's the coalition on this? Because, frankly, the coalition has not brought itself to be able to express its concern either to people domestically who are deeply worried about the way in which the tragic loss of life and the number of people killed in this operation. But the other point I would make is, in the international landscape, this is the most contestable it has been in decades. And the worst thing for the west is a perception of hypocrisy when it comes to crises like this. We need to be able to demonstrate our values and in particular our defence of international humanitarian law. And the Coalition has been utterly silent on this, or at other times been very weak, particularly this week, in acknowledging that Israel crossed a line and that Zomi Frankcom paid the price for the crossing of that line.

ANDREW CLENNELL: All right, well, let's turn to your portfolio. It's now emerging as a big part of the budget of future made in Australia. What does this mean? Because I guess there's a concern, like you've had this solar shot announcement. There's a concern the government will play favourites with various companies and various projects.

ED HUSIC: The big thing for us coming out of the pandemic, we're determined to learn the lessons. It's not just talk. You know, a lot of people have said we can't have the same things that occurred then, happen again. And by that, I mean we clearly saw supply chains didn't work the way that they should have. The products we needed at the time when we needed them most, weren't there. Geopolitics obviously got in the way. We've had too much centralisation of production in one country, namely China. And we've also got bigger challenges around responding to climate change. And there's actually a big opportunity for Australian industry to get involved. So, from our point of view, it's not just the budget. The budget is the latest chapter in terms of a broader effort to revitalise in manufacturing capability and improve supply chains. And from our point of view, it's a big job. You've had outright neglect and hostility from coalition governments in times past towards manufacturing. But Australians know it's important that we're a country that makes things, and particularly in priority areas, value adding in resources and ag, medical manufacture as well, in energy, defence and transport and emerging technology, those key areas for us underpin a lot of our work.

ANDREW CLENNELL: But it looks like you're going to be doling out a fair bit of money. And I guess the question is, does that fuel inflation?

ED HUSIC: So to, and also to your other point about playing favours. Right. So, let me answer both the question you've asked and the one before. So, we have been very focused, particularly around the setup of the National Reconstruction Fund having an independent board in place. Why? Because you look at the way that the Coalition behaved in government, and they doled out grants based on political interest and colour coded spreadsheets. We want taxpayers to have confidence that money's been used well, and that's why, to your point about favourites, etcetera, we've got arm's length mechanisms to deal with that. In terms of the inflationary element, this is an investment in productive capacity. The failure of supply chains to work fed inflation and spurred it on, and the Coalition was unable in government to deal with that. So, by attacking some of these issues around supply chains, making sure that we've got supply to meet demand. We are also aiming to tend to those inflationary pressures as well.

ANDREW CLENNELL: All right, Peter Dutton's nuclear announcement, he's tying that to manufacturing. He says you can't hit your zero target, net zero target without nuclear. What's your reaction to that?

ED HUSIC: Well, I think this is a triumph of hope over experience. I mean, nowhere in the world really at scale is anyone doing what Peter Dutton wants with small modular reactors. And he believes that the solution to energy prices and energy generation now is something that might happen in ten years and something that is way more expensive than what can be provided through a renewables pathway. He's asking Australians two things. One, to accept higher prices that come from building nuclear reactors, and two, he's hoping that they'll accept, without detail, where these reactors will be placed, particularly in regional Australia. And so for him, he's pushing hard on an issue without providing the detail. And sure, you can have an Opposition Leader that believes in something, but you've also got to believe in the fact that Australians want detail. And he's treating Australians like mugs when he says we can go nuclear without any detail. One of the biggest investments.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Sure, I'm sure he'll come with some detail, but when it came to that solar shot announcement, there was a controversy over you and Chris Bowen travelling in this different jet to the PM. Seems to have resonated. Do you know why that occurred or how it occurred? Did you turn up at the airport and they said, oh, sorry, you're not on the PM's jet?

ED HUSIC: Well, as explained, the issue was we had to get to a particular point in NSW where the airport we were landing at wouldn't be able to sustain, based on RAAF advice, bigger aircraft.

ANDREW CLENNELL: They look like two pretty big jets. I don't understand why you couldn't have all gone on the one jet.

ED HUSIC: Well, I don't know about you, but I'm very careful about countermanding RAAF advice about what aircraft is suitable right. The only other option would be to fly into Newcastle and do another two hour drive. And then you also get hammered on whether or not the cost and feasibility of getting that many people moving over that period will be right. I think the bigger thing here is for us. We obviously try to manage these things and do the right thing by the taxpayer and take on board the advice the RAAF. And it's a bold person to go counter to their advice. 

ANDREW CLENNELL: All right, all right. Just finally, there was a story published recently that indicated that you were unhappy with the tight rein the likes of Katy Gallagher and Jim Chalmers and their departments have on the budget, that you complained directly to the PM about it being excluded from expenditure review committee meetings and that you raised concerns about the influence of two bureaucrats, heads of treasury and finance, Steven Kennedy and Jenny Wilkinson, and their level of power within the government. Is that true?

ED HUSIC: Well, it's been reported conversations that have been had. I don't confirm or deny what happens in cabinet. You know, I make that initial point because it's been reported. I haven't been saying those things publicly and I very much value - 

ANDREW CLENNELL: Did you find a much?

ED HUSIC: I very much value, if I may emphasise this point. I value the way that Anthony Albanese runs his cabinet. I value the fact that he provides for us to all have our input and say, I also respect the longstanding tradition, importantly, that what is said in cabinet stays in cabinet. That will be my position, both with your good self and elsewhere.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Ed Husic, industry and science Minister. Thanks so much for your time, mister.

ED HUSIC: Appreciate it.